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Master Plan?
Yeah
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Pants!
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Total Votes : 4

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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:13 pm  Reply with quote

hmm.. control...

is done by everyone...

everyone controls everyone else. this reminds me of a game we've all played over here in the Stats: Rock Paper Scisors...

Paper, the weakest object, is cut by Scisors...

and the Scisors, in turn, is smashed by Rock...

who is then smothered and covered by weak little Paper...

control is a wheel, if there is ANY control, which i don't really believe anyway.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 7:45 am  Reply with quote

perhaps the paper in smaller pieces jams up the scissors?

perhaps the scissors chip the rock down slowly but surely?

perhaps the rock smashes through the paper in the end?

perhaps there is no damn rock, paper, or scissors! WE MAY NEVER KNOW!!!!!
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Datura
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:10 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
what controls the controller of the controlled if there is no controller afterall


Nothing, control is simulated, like everything else (long live Baudrillard :D)
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:05 am  Reply with quote

heh, but you see the question becomes unanswerable, since nothing in the question can exist (controller or controlled) if there is no controller!! see? SEE??...........i thought so...........*chortle*
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thoth87
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:22 pm  Reply with quote

simulated? er... how bout not...

in order for something to be simulated, there has to be something for it to simulate... and if, as you say, everything is simulated, than there is nothing real to be simulated, and therefore, the things that you call 'simulated' are in fact the realities, and not the simulations...unless there's something else out there that we are simulating.

so what is it?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:49 pm  Reply with quote

what is it? whatever we make it!
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thoth87
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 10:09 pm  Reply with quote

but if everything is simulated, then that would be simulated too...and so this particular theroy is completly wacked.

yup.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 10:53 am  Reply with quote

not really, its much like the theory that postulates what if i am the only person that exists and everyone else is just a figment of my imagination, functioning as a result of my mind wandering. its the same exact thing, but a philosopher said this. (i forgot who, so sue me)
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Datura
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:07 am  Reply with quote

Quote:
simulated? er... how bout not...
in order for something to be simulated, there has to be something for it to simulate... and if, as you say, everything is simulated, than there is nothing real to be simulated, and therefore, the things that you call 'simulated' are in fact the realities, and not the simulations...unless there's something else out there that we are simulating.
so what is it?


Not nessarcerily. First of all, the real is always lost. Everything must end for the simulation to exist as an accepted hyperreal.

Second of all, show me a god without human facets, without some sort of effect on this universe, without some aspect of human existence simulated through it. What are iconoclasts more afraid of than the fact that their god does not exist other than a simulated projection of all human existance? Why does YHWH rage, when humans in a universal sense, really don't add up to much? Why should the Creators be so limited in modern Christianity, even though it is meant to be omnipotent? Why were the old gods so full of human lust and love and life? Why are the controllers so human and limited?

Quote:
but if everything is simulated, then that would be simulated too...and so this particular theroy is completly wacked


Why does something that is simulated, that is created, that exists in complexities that would take millions of lifetimes to understand, "completely wacked"?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:02 am  Reply with quote

and for that matter datura why do we even need gods at all? arent they just bigger slightly more powerful humans in that sense?

but the last point you made is quite true, goes back to the name of the forum in a sense. after all in the end we cant prove that there is or is not any spoon.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:21 pm  Reply with quote

correct me if i'm wrong...but i believe i said that the THEORY was completely wacked, i said nothing about the SIMULATIONS, if that is what they are. but the point is, (which may have changed from my original thought) that even simulations are realities. they have to 'exist' (and i use that term VERY lightly) on some level or another, least they wouldn't 'be'. and something that 'is' is, in my mind (at the moment) a reality.
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Datura
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:01 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
that even simulations are realities


What is a theory but another form of simulation of thoughts into a certain system?

Quote:
and for that matter datura why do we even need gods at all? arent they just bigger slightly more powerful humans in that sense?


Yep. I'd say people need gods like people need heros and role models. But with the new-world gods having to deal with the erm, "joy" of patriachal monotheism they're either turned into universal "powers" or embodied with copious amounts of feminine traits like"compassion" and "mercy". Of course, I'd argue this as just another problem with monotheistic system and why it's not going to last much longer unless it shatters again and allows itself to embody itself in more fractured multiple beings. Buddhism allowed this to happen rather smartly with the Bodhisattvas and Buddhas, new-agey stuff manages to play into this with Angels, and if you're part of the Major sects, there's enough saints to satisfy your most paganistic desires. But the issues with saints are that they're confined to the Major sects that charismatic churches claim to reject, and thus have to play the "ambiguous yet powerful emotion 'spirit' of the lordeh!" card. There's some interesting studies though around Saint-worship in places like South America and Africa where the christian branches have been incorporated into the society and the Saints have ended up basically being worshipped like gods, just like Bodhisattvas etc. But then you have the dusty old whack-jobs in Rome and such going "noooo Bad pagans! There is only one thing you should be worshipping" and frankly, alienating more people.

So yeah. Multiple gods are needed, so personally, I think monotheism is a fruitless pursuit to try and impose upon any multifaceted society. Humans need the diversity, need the multiple stories and myths and embodiments to satisfy multifaceted spiritualities.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:38 pm  Reply with quote

first off, perhaps you wouldnt mind cooling it on jumping on every single technicality that thoth or me put up. its getting kind of annoying. when we say something, you should realize what we mean, since you've been around here as long as we have almost, and know what we believe and talk about.

that being said! what you said about beliefs is where we have to clash again. we do not have to believe in any god(s) or entity(ies) at all. but most choose to to make the 'existance' in this framework purposeful and meaningful.

thus we do not NEED any of it, but if we do choose to believe in something of the ilk, then we choose for ourselves what is and is not true, and what the entity(ies) really are and stand for.
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mimo
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:44 pm  Reply with quote

Isn't the idea that there is no plan a master plan in itself?

The entire concept of a master plan exists because of the human mind and therefore the plan itself must exist in the human mind. We choose what the master plan is. If we choose there is none, then our mind follows that plan.

Thought runs in circles. The more logical it is, the more evident it becomes.

-mimo
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thoth87
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:53 pm  Reply with quote

i don't feel like getting knee deep in religion right now, so i'll just toss some of my belifes on heros...

does it bother you that people NEED heroes? all a hero is, is someone that is raised on high by the masses while the masses belittle themselves in order to deitify (word? well it is now dam it!) the 'heroes'. anyone can be a hero, it dosn't take anything more than a pretty face, a sexy body, curves, lines, etc...

where's the skill? damn it! my role model is Shawn 'Thunder' Wallace, one of the greatest saxophone players alive to day, and my private instructor for a while. that man can swing! but i don't deitify (still a word) or look up to him because he looks nice, or because he has a way with the ladies. no, it's because he spent years of hard work dedicated to the saxophone. hell, in sixth grade, he was FIRST CHAIR alto for his home town's high school band. hard work, let me tell you.

anywho, there's a quick rant on heroism and deification. bwa!
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