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Master Plan?
Yeah
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Neigh
25%
 25%  [ 1 ]
Pants!
75%
 75%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 4

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Datura
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:08 pm  Reply with quote

Master Plan: Do you believe in one or not?

State your yeah or neigh and perhaps a small description why or why not.

Me: Neigh. Because I was born like that. I believe your predisposition to belief in a master plan or not is genetic. But that's just me. I know some people don't.
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athênê
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 9:39 am  Reply with quote

I don't think predestination necessarily equates to a "master plan" in the sense that some divine force is pulling strings. However, I tend to lean toward a more quantum mechanics view of predestination (or determinism, for you moral phil. people out there). I like to think that the energy and mass spewed out from the universe's birthplace have and will always behave in specific and predictable (using probabilty calculations, anyway)patterns. These patterns then essentially dictate every event that happens. I don't know if that qualifies as a master plan though. I don't think there's a wizard behind the curtain.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:06 pm  Reply with quote

i say pants, for two reasons, first off, how can we actually ever find out if either one is true in the long run, our lives are too insignificant and isolated to produce results that would show one or the other. and i myself believe that there is a little bit of both. i believe that all of the choices are out there and predetermined that you will HAVE a given number of choices, however what you choose is up to you, and has not been determined.

and second off, pants are the fabric that holds society together....and youre not wearing any!
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thoth87
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:23 pm  Reply with quote

perhaps there is a master plan, and if there is, that makes everything a whole lot easier cause destiny comes into play, and you can't deny your destiny.

of course, this leads me to ask...
if there is a master plan, who planned it.

(oh, yea, pants.)
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Cam
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:31 am  Reply with quote

Everyone who has replyed to this original post so far is correct.
Everyone has given their perspective which eludes to what role each one of us plays in this beautiful dance. Put them all together and you have another chunk of the absolute truth. Our confusion and contrast in perceptions is simply a result of trying to explain the REASON for physical existence through physical means of explanation. "Ain't gonna happen!"

The spiritual realm is not a reflection of the phenomenal realm.
It's the other way around actually. Whatever happens, happens spiritually first. What we see with our 5 senses in this physical realm is a reflection of whats going on spiritually.

Great example is Karma. Karma is a spiritual law. It's a person's intent that shapes his/her karmic energy from moment to moment. The physical law of cause and effect is what reflects karma.

So yes, Morpheus is correct. Phenomena always behaves in specific and predictable patterns. It has to. It's governed by laws. Laws that reflect whats going on spiritually.

Mouse, in asking “what real effect, if any, does any one person's consciousness have on the universe?”
You’re implying that one person’s consciousness may not hold much weight or pull on the overall collective conscious. And this implication is also correct. (The discussion of the collective is so big I’m gonna leave it at that. But if anyone wants to chat about it I’d be glad to.)

But remember Mouse, the spiritual happens first and is reflected physically. Chemical/electrical reactions do not create thought. Thought manifest itself physically into electrical pulses/currents. We can monitor a persons thinking patterns through electrical pulses and the bodies chemical reactions which are the effects of thought.

nightbeest77 – Correct! The choices available to us in the physical realm ARE restricted and predetermined by a number of spiritual conditions. (For example, a person’s level of awareness). But how we respond to those choices is not predetermined. Your point also appropriately ties in beautifully with what Mouse said.
The choices we do make have no everlasting effect on the ultimate truth. What we must decide for ourselves through our choices is to be a part of the spiritual collective or not. I believe Morpheus put it eloquently when he said: “There’s a difference between knowing the path and walking it”.

Thoth87 – Correct! There is a master plan. The plan of the collective. We all are spiritually a part of this collective. So we are all part of that master plan ORIGINALLY. I say originally because some of us change our mind’s and choose the realm of phenomena instead. (The name CYPHER comes to mind).
But that’s another discussion by itself.
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TheOne
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:50 pm  Reply with quote

I agree with you, Morpheus, and have held that viewpoint for a long time. At the start of the universe, everything that would ever occur could have been predetermineed, for the elements that would allow it to happen were already either in place or moving towards their places. Our conciences, to respond to Mouse, have no effect on the universe, because they are a product of this predetermination. However, this is not to say that there is a man holding all the strings (other than Don Corleone). It is simply that all the strings have been pulled. We are not gliding on a set path. We have free will, yet the structure of our brain is such that the choices we make can already be predicted. So I'll vote neigh, even though... *PANTS!*
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:38 pm  Reply with quote

with this discussion basically all tied up i think theres only one thing left to say....pants are the fabric that hold our society together.....AND WE'RE NOT WEARING ANY!!!!! sorry had to say that.

oh, but one thing that i should add on (another one of my opinions). i believe that if one can truly convince himself that he is not part of any master plan, he can become truly enlightened. through some means or another they can create their own choices, completely by their own ablility, and not from fate, destiny, predetermination, or anything like it! well thats my two yen. (worthless amount anyway)
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Datura
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:16 pm  Reply with quote

Just because there is no master plan doesnt mean there is no causality, which, in a universal sense, is just another form of fate (just not in the metaphysical master-plan-existence form of "fate"). Random atoms bashins together? Fuck yeah. Chains of causality from atoms bashing together limiting the infinit possibilities of each cause/effect to the specifics of the events? Yep. An ordered plan for it all? Hell no.

I <3 Chaos.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:37 am  Reply with quote

well i myself never said that causality didnt exist, however just to clarify again, its the chain of events, like how if you go this way, you get these choices, and if you go this way next, you get these choices. i mean its sort of controlled, but anything can happen

and when we can create the paths ourselves and be aware of it, i see that as true enlightenment.
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Datura
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:36 am  Reply with quote

How can something be controlled without a controller?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:52 am  Reply with quote

how can a controller control something that controls itself and nothign else? you'll find the same answer more likely than not.
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Datura
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:47 pm  Reply with quote

That assumes there is a controller within the system. But some people (not me :P) would argue that the devine force is outside the system, the original real.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:48 pm  Reply with quote

*raises his hands in surrender*

oh damn, you all caught me... go ahead, lock me up.

man, you two just get INTO it, don't ya? hate to see you guys at the next Ametuer Philosopher's Convention (if there is one).

but no, i don't think there IS a controller (hiding my terrible secret) either in or out of the system. it's just random, like dice falling onto a table, but with more numbers and glasses to bump into. then there's always someone that spills there drink all over and gets the Yhatzee cards wet... damn it all.

woOt.
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Datura
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:10 am  Reply with quote

Quote:
man, you two just get INTO it, don't ya? hate to see you guys at the next Ametuer Philosopher's Convention (if there is one).


*purrs contentedly* Well, I get no decent intelligent stimulation in the "(hyper)real world" so I take it out on the internet :) I love these kinds of conversations though.

Thereisnospoony board is nice because it isn't full of stupidheads like some other forums I discuss such matters on (notmentioning any names *coughmatrixfans.netcough* :D and I can actually discuss the matters with intelligent peoples.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:59 am  Reply with quote

*waves tiny flag* yaaay!

that aside, let me change the question yet AGAIN!

what controls the controller of the controlled if there is no controller afterall?

and nobody actually answered my questions yet, so i challenge thee!

oh yes, and i have to agree about most boards, DEFINITELY that one, rather embarasing sometimes over there, but at least theres one place left to have real thought!

oh, but dont forget, intellectual stimulation is like humor, beauty, and prettymuch any other thing around: subjective and in the eye of the beholder. at least thats how it seems anywho
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