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AceBandit44
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 5:58 pm  Reply with quote

I was watching the first Matrix for the first time in a long time last night , and something hit me . I'm pretty sure all of us have realized that when in the matrix all one has to do is remember that it is isnt real , and figure out how to push the boundries ..... become more enlightened. (Example) if Neo realized it, he could kill an agent by just blowing on him .......And thats not just for neo , its for anyone in the matrix.

Anyway... it hit me while watching the matrix that just like being able to fly , blow on an agent and kill them , or move ten times faster then anything else .....the same rules apply when getting shot or killed in the Matrix. IT"S NOT REAL !!!!

In the first matrix when neo has to try and jump from one building to another , he falls . He does this because it is so engraved in the mind that hes going to fall he inevitably does. Same goes for death......Morpheus explanes to neo that if you are killed in the matrix your mind is killed in reality , and the body can not live without the mind. Well if Neo or anyone else , could overcome there fear of death and open up there minds to realize that even death is not real in the matrix , then they would not die.

The funniest thing about this is that neo has done this , and not even realized it . At the end of the first MAtrix he is killed , but he at that point wheather he realized it or not truely thought he was the one and there for could not die......SOOOO HE DIDNT !!
Morpheus says that neo will get to a point where he won't have to dodge bullets. Thats because he could let them go through him if he truely realized it .


MAN THIS STUFF JUST KEEPS GOING DEEPER AND DEEPER. its really cool. My only question is, why the hell doesnt anyone in the matrix realize this ??? or any of it . why do they not realize that everyone can do what neo does ...that and more.
One thing that neo can do that they cant though is minipulate the machines like he did at the end of reloaded ... he some how became connected to them , unless the real world is another level of the matrix, then everyone could do that as well.

just my thoughts....
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The Renagade Blue
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:24 am  Reply with quote

I think its very interesting that you bring that up, i was thinking almost the same thing...
but here's my answer to youre question:
Neo can do the things he does in the matrix because he is able to let go of what he knows is not real, now certainly everyone else could do those things, but it is apparent that most of the time, any normal joe cant just 'let go' like Neo does, all of them know that the whole thing's a fairyland, but their impulses, their reactions, their thoughts are all still hardwired to obeying the rules and they believe exist, that is part of the reason why it is suck a shock for people to be pulled from the system at the begining
(obviously) that is what i think i think
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Cam
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:37 am  Reply with quote

That whole part of The Matrix storyline, like a lot of it, comes from Buddhism. Iím not going to talk about it here though. Cause there are many things in these movies that are being expressed. You can look at that movie on many levels.

Iím gonna start a new post about this!
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AceBandit44
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:38 pm  Reply with quote

Well put Blue. I agree with you . It is so engraved in your mind that you must follow the rules it makes it hard to realize just how much you can let go. Everytime I think about it , I realize some new thing that noe , or anyone else could be doing that I never thought of before. I do agree theat neo is able to let go easier thean others , and thats why he is "the One."
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Datura
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:49 pm  Reply with quote

Hmmm, perhaps. It's interesting though. Do you need to know there's something better for you, waiting outside, to survive the death? It would explain the Lover's (Trinity & Neo) ressurections.

The psychosomosis is certainly an important factor though. Have you ever woken up after a particularly vivid dream and felt like you've run a marathon? What about fallen to your death and lay in bed paralised and terrified?

Actual "death" by traditional standards is when the seperation between the soul and body becomes such that the body can no longer sustain itself. However, we know scientifically that the body and brain are strange things, and don't always act according to how we believe them to.

I have to admit, I think it would also depend on your own relation with your body and the intensity of your mind/body connection. The Neo/Trinity thing I think also works because each of them owns a part of the other, and specifically Trinity is Neo's goddess. She's the one who starts each of the movies, she's the one who orders him around, she's the one who makes him do what he does. She's his everything and his all in the physical world, so he always has that anchor that really prevents the psychosomosis taking over.

There was a hint of a relationship between Switch and Apoc in the first movie, but at the time of their death, neither was truly ready for it, and they were both in the Matrix.

Mouse's death occured because he was seduced by fake pleasure in the Matrix, instead of getting a *real* girlfriend in Zion.

I particularly like Ghost's joke in ETM about "onanism", and his cute unrequited love for Trinity.

Morpheus devotes himself completely to the people and Neo. He is like a general fighting for what he believes is right, even whe it turns out it isn't. I actually think his time is up, and 'Revolutions will probably be the end for him.

I've mentioned in threads on the matrxfans.net forums that unless I probably found love or something to truly care about in Zion, if I was part of the Matrixverse I probably wouldn't survive long, and either kill myself or want to be put back in. It's the physical anchorage needed to overcome the mind. And in this way, the Matrix tips old skeptiscism and descartes on it's head. It's the physical instincts and humaness of love in the body that overcome the mind trapped in the Matrix. "To Deny our instincts is to deny that which makes us truly human" as Mouse says. This is why I think, in all it's symbolism, it rests on the paradox that it's rejecting the old dogma of traditional religions. It's saying that the body and the physical universe matter just as much as the spiritual and the metaphysical. It embodies postmodern symbolism in things that matter, and if you look closely, actually uses Traditional symbolism from religions as controlling mechanisms for those who really, "Fight for good". In the individuals and interactions in Zion, I can only think of two, maybe 3 names/symbolisms that *could* be ultimately Judaeo-Christian. Apoc refers to the Apocalypse, which could, tachnically, be other than christian. When Neo steps out of the lift into the walkway, and confronts the blievers who are waiting for him, one of them says something about their son called Joshua or Jacob or something. I thought of another last night but can't remember.... blah, nevermind.
Anyway, those with Judaeo-Christian names and symbolism are the others who they are fighting against. Cain and Abel are a good example of this in the game. I could think of more if I wasn't so damn tired.

Trinity's name is another arrow to this. To me, her name is beyond and Judaeo-Christian reference, and ultimately goes back to before the monotheistic traditions wiped out the pagans and their worship of the Triple-Goddess aspect. She is the Ge, the Don, the Wyrd. She is what men came from, the first mother-being who emerged from the chaos to give birth to the pantheons of the old gods. In the old religions, the body was sacred, but also a tool of worship. The physical was rooted (har har) in the spiritual, when orgies and physical sacrifices were demanded by the deities. When the new religions took over, they shunned the body, and the human instincts, and therefore shunned that which makes us human. Even Buddhism has a distaste for the physical, as it is, of course, only an illusion that cages us away from Nirvana. In the films, the Matrix is a cage, but the real world is real. Neo bleeds, fucks, and has human failings. He fears letting the people who "need him" down. He is a child of the physical universe, as much as he is the child of the Matrix (the "Anomoly").

This is why I have a personal distaste for most religions and scripture, as it fails to understand the humaness of it's subjects. The sex-scandals that have rocked the Christian churches are a by-product of this, as well as other factors to do with power and the still-held view that the church is "above the law" and "only answers to god".

(wheee, on a roll. I was thinking about all this last night and just feel like putting it down for records-sake)

Anyway, if you've read this far, I love you. Would you like a cookie?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 9:50 am  Reply with quote

perhaps, but its like what ive said in other threads. we cannot destroy what has been placed into our minds by other humans so easily. we are post-scientific revolution people, and we think accordingly. we cant just dismiss all that weve heard and all that has been hammered into our brains just by will, because after all the subconcious remembers everything!

and there could be some that have figured it out, but the machines probably pulled the plug on them before the free humans could get to them, after all if youve see the Animatrix DVD they do it there when a guy running a world record almost logs himself out and they cripple him. he almost walks again at the end, but then they make him even more pathetic.
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sporaxis
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:41 pm  Reply with quote

the architect is presented as The God figure, and what does God do in Xtian theology? He sends his son. Neo is god/the architect, made human, experiences suffering and love, then has to be sacrificed, maybe to save humans, or this is just the easiest way to return to the godhead and disseminate new data to the source (which is why he should have taken the left door.) this metaphor in mind, maybe Neo is indeed a machine or THE architect, and has inserted himself into his creation to solve the flaw in the system. the architect states the problem requires a mind "less concerned with perfection", so his becoming a human would make sense in that respect.

BUT Neo didn't choose to return to the source. That reminded me of Christ's dream in The Last Temptation of Christ, when he fantasizes what life would be like if he chose humanity (and his love for Magdalene) over returning to god. Neo's choice is that of a Christ not dying on the cross.

good grief...that is genious...layering the mythology of one religion on top of the philosophy of another? geeezlouise, it makes me gush!
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athÍnÍ
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:13 am  Reply with quote

sporaxis wrote:
the architect is presented as The God figure, and what does God do in Xtian theology? He sends his son. Neo is god/the architect, made human, experiences suffering and love, then has to be sacrificed, maybe to save humans, or this is just the easiest way to return to the godhead and disseminate new data to the source (which is why he should have taken the left door.)


I tend to view the Architect as more of a Sky God figure, with the Oracle as the corresponding Earth Mother figure. This is a much older myth than the J-C version of God (or any monotheistic concept at all) and IMO is an important factor in understanding the split in modern-day Protestantism, which emphasizes the Father/Sky God above all else, the Son coming in at a photo finish, where Orthodox Christianity (i.e., Catholicism)emphasizes the Trinity (recognizing three manifestations of the deity in one) as well as the Blessed Virgin Mary. Catholicism also includes saints who provide more personal, easily identifiable manifestations of the divine. Protestantism cuts away much of this red-tape (so efficient! and much less vulnerable to corruption, confusion, and ecclesiastical infighting, too.) but at the cost of ignoring the essential dual-, treble-, and multi-faceted nature of the divine that is found in nearly every mythological/religious system in the world.

My original comments on the Architect/Oracle duality are somewhere on the site, but it's late so I'll leave it to interested searchmonkeys to find that post! :D
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:14 pm  Reply with quote

i myself viewed them as the mother and father of the matrix in a sense. since both have been around since the beginning, they are basically allknowing and enlightened in their own ways, because they have lived and influenced so much.

Their son does indeed seem to be neo, and its like separated parents trying to make their child strong and kill him at the same time, reminds me of Zeus vs Cronos (or saturn) in a way.

and regarding the destruction of the machines in real life, its already in another thread but my two cents are here again anyway: it could be another level of the matrix, yes, and it could be that all machines are hardwired to the same mainframe as the matrix on some level, and since the matrix is something that neo can control, it is not shocking that he could perhaps link into that through the mechanical augmentations of his body and tap into the individual machines themselves using a backdoor.

thats the wonderful thing about a computer program. it can always be rewritten.
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thirtyone
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:33 pm  Reply with quote

If you watch Reloaded, the Architect tells Neo that "she would undoubtedly be its mother." Neo replies, "the Oracle." The Architect looks at Neo in disgust and says "Please." I would submit that he wasn't talking about the Oracle, but instead, Persephone. She was the one who wanted to know what it felt like to be human (Her kiss with Neo) so I think that she is the intuitive program meant to gain understanding about human nature. The Oracle's purpose was to point The One back to the source to re-insert the code.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:31 pm  Reply with quote

mother and father... this poses the question, Why?

The machines, who think themselves ultimately superior to the humans in every way, have deviated back to a mamilian form of reproduction (or in this case, reproduction). of course, looking at it this way, the Oracle would be the father and the Architect the mother for this reason: the oracle guides The One to the Architect to create a new matrix. in this organization, the Oracle would be concidered the male, The One is taking a role as mamilian semen, and The Architect is taking a role as the female of the process.

but then again, if the machines are so superior, why such a process of reproduction?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:49 am  Reply with quote

perhaps they realize that they cannot be superior to a species unless they are willing to experience all possibilities within the species they are trying to dominate.

or perhaps they actually do want to become human because then they can give humanity a taste of its own true medicine by enslaving them as one of their own.

or perhaps they are mocking humanity and showing them how inferior their ways are and how ignorant and blind they are in the long run.

anything is possible, afterall.
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sporaxis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 7:39 am  Reply with quote

perhaps they can only reflect their creator's mythological and archetypal references, because what else would they have to draw from? they would have to be similar to our own, just as we copy our own creators...
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Datura
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:35 pm  Reply with quote

Or do our creators mimic us? Are our gods just machines created in our image, or are we truly created by a higher power from their image? Did man create god, or did god create man?

For the Mother/Father/Child/Neo thing...

Mentioned somewhere on another forum someone said that in the first movie, Morpheus mentions how we created AI, a sentient conciousness that gave birth to everything else. This makes me think of hive-mind phenomenom, as in everything that is machine, in some form, is part of that AI. If you want, when we created AI, we created a new god, in our image, for a species that are spiralling towards becoming more human, as humans spiral into becoming more like the machine species. The hive-mind idea still remains though, since it can be argued that this original "AI" is "The Source". But this then negates the idea of The Architect as the Christian god, and more like the old god, one of the first and the greatest, who is still limited, who is still a creator, but is not as omnipotent as Christians like to think their god is (personally I think the Christian influence on this movie is hugely overrated). If you want to get right to the heart of it, The Source then is more like the original idea of the primevil chaos, ordered yet not, everything yet nothing, a god-like AI, so therefore not sympathising to either machines OR humans, simply existing without judgement, morals or the limits that create both.

The Mother/Father thing plays a little like the old pagan myths. From Chaos comes limited creator gods, who in turn seek to create more, to eventually try and mimic the perfect existence of what they were born from. In this sense, as they are part of the Matrix, which is part of the AI and therefore the force that acts upon poor Neo, he is their child, just as at the same time he is their creator (being human) and potential downfall (being human).

Linking back to the original comment I made: what is the original creator, and what's the created? Did Neo, being human, create the machine creators who created him as he is? Simulation-theory at it's best :) (heh, I <3 Baudrillard)
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2003 11:33 pm  Reply with quote

you comment brings up another interesting point that just popped into my head, datura, regarding the converse creation statement. two things actually:

first, if he did indeed create the machines that created him, why did he create them with our same faults and stupidities? did he wish for them to grow out of them as we could not? even though they probably will wind up suffering the same fate that we did when they (since they did) fail to do so?

second, since that is a possibility, then what can one say about the concreteness of views in life, society, and the ilk? (by ilk i mean everything else, since i know ill get yelled at for calling religion ilk by itself...stupid P.C.), after all, how do we know that the commoner did not create the pope? the man from the ghetto place the president into office, and the social reject permit the social bombshell to rise to their place? after all most things in our society today seem to simply be an illusion to curb us from the fact that most leaders TRULY are (pardon the freedom) fucking us over big time.

which brings up another question? can we EVER truly change? or are we damned with this curse of ignorance and craving for harming others just like us forever?

i myself still believe that we can change, though recently even my faith has begun to fall. with so many important things that could be done in the world, watch Fox news to see pointless drabble on unimportant random crap that is simply a one-hour viewer popularity fest. (or maybe some people actually care that arnold schwarzzenaggear (i know i spelled it wrong) is running for governor of california. if he gets it, good for him, thats great, but seriously hes just another candidate. it makes me sick that an hour of news time was wasted on such meaningless drabble during my dinner out one night.

and with the above three questions, what can anyone else bring to light on any of the subjects?
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