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Realist
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:18 am  Reply with quote

It's not that bad. True, the writing was crude, but i somehow doubt that you actually came up with many of the ideas and facts in the book. How would you know anyway, you haven't read it . . .

That's not what civilation is about. Civilation is about making sure that the greatest number of people are able to successfully pass of their genes. The reason that having sex with random people is looked down upon is because if everyone was doing it, there would be very few successful passings on of genes. That's not why we think we have the laws, we think we have the laws because its perverse to do that. But the origional idea came from hunter-gatherers realising that the most sucessful way for children to be created is for a couple to mate for life and raise the children with some assistance from the tribe.

And yet when a male child is created he grows a penis and testicles rather than overies and a vagainia. It also re-works the entire development cycle so that our bodies eventually end up quite different. Males have more muscles and are generally taller and heavier, females have wider hips. Getting rid of nipples is an extremely minor change.

But i actually see your point, male nipples were a bad example. Lets try wisdom teeth instead. Their origional purpose was to push the rest of your teeth forward to fill in the gaps where other teeth had been lost. This was a useful skill during the stone age, but is now pointless. If man was really created as a final product, made by an intelegent being, why do we still have wisdom teeth. Answer: we weren't. We are even now evolving so that these teeth are out of the gene pool. My mom has no lower wisdom teeth, and my sister has none at all. However, if things were to go back into the stone age and we began to lose teeth, the fact that I have all my wisdom teeth would make it easier for me to consume food, and therefore make it more likely that i would pass on my genes.

The church has caved. As they have caved on so many other things. As it is likely they will continue to cave, until they are nothing left but a hollowed out shell. Why would you join a religion who you know teaches falsely?

Science can be wrong, but they try to check their ideas. When has the bible been re-written to incorperate new evidence?
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transport22
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:39 pm  Reply with quote

I don't have much to add here since I haven't read the book.

Just wanted to say that disproving the existence of a higher intelligence because we have wisdom teeth and nipples is stretching it a little far. Just my two cents though.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:58 pm  Reply with quote

I havnt read the whole book, i read the first few chapters. I said that in the last post i thought.

Civilization is about being an organized conglomerate of people who interact based on the "norms" that the society created in an attempt to advance themselves beyond the original tribal relations and practices. And it wasn't "two get together and raise kids" to start, it was "most fertile with most fertile, and when shes pregnant move to the next" and they're all essentially children of the tribe, thats how it started.

If something is made, changes take time, even in our world this is true, improvements on anything take time. what about that? Things have to factor in change after a while, as the church is doing, did you ever think about that? Would beliefs of the world as you hold it now hold true after a lifetime of scientific advancement and discovery? i doubt it, the same holds true here, proof or not.
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Realist
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:51 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
Civilization is about being an organized conglomerate of people who interact based on the "norms" that the society created in an attempt to advance themselves beyond the original tribal relations and practices.


While it is true that this is the end result, I doubt that this is what the people of the tribe were thinking as they did it. But we're getting off topic.

Quote:
Things have to factor in change after a while, as the church is doing, did you ever think about that?


Yes, but the problem is that they're still trying to rationalise old beliefs. If basically the entire Bible has been proven wrong, why do people still believe in the god it preaches about? Because they were raised to believe that, and so they still do. Some people change their beliefs later in life, but continually hitting a kid with the same message from a young enough age and eventually they will believe it, no matter what it is.

Quote:
Would beliefs of the world as you hold it now hold true after a lifetime of scientific advancement and discovery? i doubt it, the same holds true here, proof or not.


You're certianly right. However, I'm willing to change my beliefs with the more we discover. If someone 2000 years from now still believed what I believe, they would be seen as willingly ignorant. And yet that is exactly what the church believes.

Quote:
Just wanted to say that disproving the existence of a higher intelligence because we have wisdom teeth and nipples is stretching it a little far. Just my two cents though.


I'm not using this as my entire argument against a higher power. However, there are christians who believe that a theory of intellegent design should be taught in schools. This theory basically says that humans are too complicated and too well designed to have evolved naturally, and an intelegence had to have made us. If we really had been made by an intelegent being, why do we have all these leftover body parts? Why wouldn't we have been made perfect the first time?

I'm not even going to go into the fossil record tracing monkies into humans.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:47 pm  Reply with quote

Why do people still believe in the stories of a higher power and just rewards in the afterlife and great reapings for those who chose the right path? hmm, lets see...life is shit a good portion of the time and people need something to believe in when they are unable to alter their saddened state regardless of supernatural degrees of toil? Thats exactly what the purpose of any belief is, its something to follow based on things you believe for some reason or another. These reasons are irrelevant, but for the most part people believe in anything because they are weak. I try to help others whenever i can because i believe i am weak, and by so helping others can perhaps become a stronger better person. The beliefs of the christians are beliefs of those who actually try to be pretty decent people, try to live life with a smile, and some justification for their work on earth is something that's nice to believe in.

And are you truly willing to believe more as things are discovered? What if things such as "there is no cure for the aids virus" or "we must exterminate the people of this area of the world to survive"? would you change beliefs of the scientific system if the dictated the calculated genocide of thousands of people? i doubt it. my point is that some things change with time, some for better, some for worse, and its up to you whether to change your beliefs or to keep believing as you have been.

And you overlook that everything changes in certain conditions. Monkeys in captivity develop differently than those in the wild. Humans in different locations develop differently from each other to an almost biblical (ironic use of an adjective there) degree. The surroundings alone can create ludicrously different outcomes in anything. And perhaps god made us to change with the times as well, so that we could incorporate the old into the new and vice versa? After all, god himself may change over the years as well, and perhaps we just change to stay in the image? what of that?
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Realist
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:08 pm  Reply with quote

Weakness is not an excuse. The movers and shakers of the world, lets use Nelson Mandella for an example here, come out of their "Shitty" lives and yet try to better things around them for themselves and other people. Those who buy into unproven ideas as a way of explaining why things are going badly have no cause to complain because they are accepting how things are, with stories as their rational, rather than trying to change them.

Quote:
I try to help others whenever i can because i believe i am weak, and by so helping others can perhaps become a stronger better person.


How are you weak? Spiritually? I don't understand.

Quote:
And are you truly willing to believe more as things are discovered? What if things such as "there is no cure for the aids virus"


I don't ever think I've ever heard anyone say that there is no cure for the AID's virus. I've heard plenty of people say there isn't one yet, but that is much different from saying it doesn't exist.

Quote:
"we must exterminate the people of this area of the world to survive"?


Depends on why. If it's some ethnic genetic reason, with absouletely no evidence to back it up, then its not proof, is it? However, if there was, say, an airborn virus that killed 70% of those infected and we had to nuke the area to contain it, it would be a much different and, more difficult, question.

Quote:
would you change beliefs of the scientific system if the dictated the calculated genocide of thousands of people?


The true scientific system, unlike some other systems I could mention, demands proof before engaging in a course of action. I assume that you're making none-too obscure refrences to Hitler and other dictators who said that science proved that their murders were justified. However, they had no proof to back up the claims; they got where they did through a charismatic sales pitch rather than evidence.

Quote:
my point is that some things change with time, some for better, some for worse, and its up to you whether to change your beliefs or to keep believing as you have been.


Exactly, why do the christians, but not I, have an excuse to keep from changing?

Quote:
And you overlook that everything changes in certain conditions.


Of course, evolution is shared by all creatures, not just humans.

God evolving. That's an interesting idea, but besides the point, because it is not accepted doctrine for any of the major subgroups of christianity.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:50 pm  Reply with quote

...weakness is an excuse for many people...the reason people follow beliefs that others conjure up is because they are weak. the reason for believing in anything is because you are weak in the aspect that the belief is strong.

And lets use the other 98% of the population who accept the way society works and their shitty life as "the norm" as an example, shall we? i'm talkin in regards to the general outlook.

I'm weak spiritually because i dont believe in myself a good portion of the time, while its very easy to help others believe in themselves. simple as that.

my point with the aids comment was "if someone said that, would you believe it?" if everyone who had aids did, all hope would die, panic would most likely ensue, thats what i was making a point of there.

Both of my extermination comments were extremes used, they do sound like hitler but i didnt mean for them too. my point is in that case, which would you follow, science or humanity? would you kill off everyone who couldnt be cured of something or let them live in isolation or some other solution. evidence or not there is no real excuse to kill multitudes of people.

The christians dont have an excuse to keep from changing....they DO keep changing....the factions broke off so that they COULD change...thats the point i was making. and like the point i made earlier, just because you dont believe in something because you havnt seen it doesnt mean its untrue.
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Realist
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:40 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
...weakness is an excuse for many people...the reason people follow beliefs that others conjure up is because they are weak.


Wrong. The reason people follow beliefs that others conjure up is because they think my working towards the ideal conjured that their 'shitty' lifes will become better. Every single system of orgization humans have ever developed has been towards that goal, be it religions, governments, alliances, affiations, or communes.

We're confusing weakness and willpower. Weakness is the inability to do anything, while what these people really need is to gain the willpower nessessary to change things. All that believing in great rewards after death does is to ruin that willpower, because people won't see the need to change things during life.

If it's so easy, why hasn't someone made you believe in yourself?

And so, someone says, "There is a glorious life after death where all is peace and happyness, and all you have to do is continue to support us to get there." The christians have said that, and before the time of education people did believe it, and realism was quashed by hope. We're now, more slowly than i would like, waking up from one of the greatest scams of all time. A scam so great, that those creating the scam began to believe their own lies. Or who knows, maybe Jesus actually believed all the lies he told to make people start behaving better, because that was his original idea. But in the years afterword, it was co-opted to the idea i stated in the first sentance of this paragraph.

The only thing that makes me more annoyed than the pervsion that twisted the Christian religion is the fact that people still believe things that we know are false. That is the same issue I have with all religions, and the issue I have with the spirituality preached here. All of the above want you to believe things we have NO proof of!

I assume, from the pattern I've begun to establish from earlier postings, that the message I will soon see posted is "But you don't know that we're wrong either!" Well, in some places I can prove things wrong, but ultimately, what both the spiritualists and the christians have are theories. Theories looking for proof. Of which we have yet to find any.

And yet the christians have killed many, many people with the thinnest of excuses: They don't believe in our god. These people are worthy of my support? Oh, and I'm not only talking about the crusades and the Inquisition, which happened hundreds of years in the past. The Holocaust, just 60 years ago, was carried out by good catholic boys who targeted jewish people because of their religion. The vatican also refused to get involved . . .

The christians do change, but not enough, not for what we now know. For example, the bible is still used. If they were truely commited to modernisation, that book of lies would have been abandoned for ideas which we, at the very least, have not been proven false yet.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:52 pm  Reply with quote

Oh really? So people followed the most awful men in history because they chose to? i'll wager a pretty penny that a good portion of them were forced to. Thats a thing right there that you have to factor in. And another reason is peer pressure, another reason is apathy towards all the beliefs and believing parts of all of them, and weakness and the inability to come up with ones own, and of course the fact that one ideal may be the same as someone elses. you see? you're just as "wrong", as you like to say, but we dont call people wrong here, so i politely request that you cease doing so. Thoth remembers the HUGE rant that we had when the forum had eight members about this.

Weakness and Willpower can be different but for the most part are exactly the same. Weakness/Willpower and the inability to do things can be both physical and mental, or physical because of mental, or mental because of physical, my point is that it can be both and neither, so once again its a personal thing and varies, so this part of the arguement falls to the redundancy arguement.

Why hasn't someone made me believe in myself? Simple. Because its a pain worse than a thousand deaths to love those around you even when they dont love you in the same way back, and still press on putting their happiness before your own. Especially for teenagers.

Partially a scam undoubtedly. it was a clear justification for oppressing the ones worse off in the world. However whether it started out that way is not for you nor i to say, since we are only presented with the end product of the scam by your definition, correct? And unless you happen to have a time machine that can take us back to before the scam was presented, then this arguement is pointless and stops here and now since its all about personal beliefs too.

I say yet again, why do you have to have proof to believe something? what makes this a requirement in your day to day life? You're obviously one that is very knowledgeable, but perhaps you need to differentiate between knowledge and wisdom? I believe there was a lengthly discussion on that long ago.

You clearly missed my point that was elsewhere, i think, but what i said was very simple. You can denonuce others as wrong and persecute them, but look throughout history at those who have done the same. The very ones who you denounce here and show such utter bitter contempt for. Almost ironic, no? I guess perhaps the whole "you become what you hate the most" proverb can have some merit here.

And ultimately what scientists look at and obsess over is making everythign explainable and cognitave. There are things that exist that manking will never understand. even you will agree with that. In a universe as vast as our own even if we spent the rest of eternity searching there would still be gaps in our knowledge, because the universe yet expands even as i type this. And theories can be proven wrong as well, over time. No? as a matter of fact Alber Einstein became famous by disproving a theory of previous generations. (props if you can name it, i want to see who knows history)

And why didn't the vatican get involved? Do you think you can control others and make them do exactly what you want all of the time? They were clearly mortified, wouldn't you be? After all even you'll agree that the church ceased its extermination type projects a good bit before hitler came around. One madman can play fear right, much like the US president did in regard to Iraq, and make great restlts, this is a proven fact, so perhaps you'll listen to it with less scoffing than you usually do. People will do things that are normally unthinkable when scared enough.

A book of lies? Lies or not, you'll note how there is only one, count it...ONE sect of christianty that follows the bible literally. Think about that before you make wild claims, allright? The rest use interpretations, and use the stories for teaching the important part of the book...they're called morals, perhaps you've heard of them? The purpose of the bible as i took it was to teach you to not be an anus of a human being, and to be a nice person every chance you can and feel like doing so.

Ah, i really do like argueing with you realist, reminds me of the old datura battles, makes it lots of fun to come back to the forum!
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Realist
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:07 am  Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh really? So people followed the most awful men in history because they chose to?


Yes, thats exactly right. People followed, say, Stalin because he would have them killed if they didn't, but people followed Hitler because he was an excellent speaker with a message the people wanted to hear. He was elected before he because a dictator, and even though people saw that he was gaining absoulete power, they didn't try to stop him. It wasn't because they were afraid of him, though, undoubately some were, it was because they believed in him and his ideals.

Your other points are valid, and there have been many dictators who use them to keep their power. However, the worst dictators ever have used an ideal to be strived toward to keep people on their side.

Ok, sorry about that. Would you perfer incorrect? Or I disagree?

The end result of weakness or a lack of willpower is often the same, but the reason for that result coming to be is different. And it does matter which is the case, because if the people are too weak to change their situation, they need the help of other people, and that help should be provided. If they just lack the willpower, they're on their own, as far as I'm concerned.

Ok, sorry about that. The only love of my life and I, even though we broke up, are still good friends, so I can't easily relate to your suffering.

I have to have proof to keep me from believing some outragious thing, just because someone said so. For example, if I didn't care about proof, then I could say that my bookcase was the center of all spiritual energy in the universe, and that it needed to be worshiped. Because I look for proof of my theories, I would quickly realise I was wrong. I have a simmilar issue with the spiritualist arguments I've seen here, because they lack enough proof for me to change my life to adhere to them.

I don't persicute people I don't agree with. For example, I've never burned anyone at the stake, shot them because they believe in a differen't invisible man than I do, or torture people until they abandon their own beliefs and come over to mine. However, I am very confident in my ideas, and am doing my very best to convince people I'm right. I do denounce people's ideas, as you no doubt denounce my ideas in your mind.

If there are things that mankind will never understand, then how do you, a member of mankind, understand it? And so if you do understand it, why is it impossible to expain it using science? I freely admit that we don't know all of the answers, but I am unwilling to accept your argument that anything mankind can experience cannot be explained.

The Vatican knew exactly what was going on, but they did nothing to stop it. A public denouncement by the Vatican still carries wait in this world, and if they did an exposae with the proof they had then everyone would have known about the Holocaust years before we actually did. I don't believe that Bushy is a madman, but I do think hes an idiot. And yes, he did play fear right and got great results. But the Vatican was untouchable by Hitler, becuase the vast majority of Germans were good Catholics. If he had gone after them, Germany would have rebelled out from under him. So I dont think that the Vatican was particulary scared of Hitler.

And how many sets of christianity that use parts of the bible that have been proven wrong? Why would it be so hard for them to use stories that are true? Or at least could be? But if we're going to start refering to the stories as morals, lets not stop here. Lets continue the idea, with, say, the story of the crow and the fox. Are you compairing the stories of the bible to these children's fables? I know I do. But lets take this idea just one step further. Is there just one sect that uses the story of Jesus and his apositles as a fable? To teach little kids values. I dont think there are many. The vast majority teaches those, and many other stories which we know are false, as fact.

Lots of fun to be here. Not at all what i expected when I was looking for a Matrix site . . .
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:38 pm  Reply with quote

Actually the reason he became so popular is because his "Brown Shirts" were the only ones who would go out and fight against the "Black Shirts" in the streets when they would cause trouble, and neither of them were very popular, but they went with the lesser of the two evils, simple as that. He wound up even more by beign a good speaker and blaming the Jewish for every single problem in Germany, but thats another case. Regardless, the ideals used to keep in power for any dictator are rarely noble, as people virtually always become drunk and addicted to power the instant they have it.

And i disagree is just what i like to use, you use whatever you want, like we always say here =).

However, there is a conondrum, what of those who have the willpower yet lack the knowledge to do so? Like you said, the help that they need is what should be provided, and thats what we try to do here, i dont see any "big boy on campus" thing as part of it as such.

There's nothing wrong with searchign for proofs to validate your arguements, my only problem with it is that there are many grounds left uncovered if you use ONLY that kind of reference for beliefs. Thats why I advocate combining both spiritual and material beliefs, that way there's much more that comes clear.

Whether you realize it or not, its just something i noticed when i do it myself, whenever i call someone wrong and give reasons why, its boosting yourself up by putting someone else down, its something that obviously happens, even inadvertently in an arguement, but happens nontheless, like i said its all relative as to how its percieved. And i dont denounce your ideas in my mind, i only denouce the blind devotion to one frame of ideas, many of your ideas i do incorporate myself, though not to the same degree.

The understanding that there are things that won't ever be understood is something like accepting a truth of a growing universe Its impossible to explain some things with science because we ourselves have not the research or the measurering devices to do so. We can guess all we want, but in the end it would take us a concrete advancement in research to understand that part, and by the time we did then there would be even more left unclarified. My arguement is not that mankind cannot understand everything, but merely that we will never be able to understand everything, and even if we come close, there are some things that cannot be explained by science even after we discover them. (for instance, why are black holes such a huge mystery even after knowing that they exist? we dont have the technology yet, and at the rate we're going with trial and error, we might never, thats all i was getting at)

And you're so certain that they knew about it (the holocaust) occuring, thats what galls me. How can you be so sure? The entire rest of the planet had no clue, as did a good majority of the German people themselves. The only ones who knew about it were the ones who ran concentration camps and the select high rolling officers. And i dont see that happening, the original outlash and desire to gain power was the fact that the WWI Versailles treaty boned over Germany so badly that they wanted what was theirs back. Thats where it all started, and it progressed into different areas as time went on, thats what happens if you look in the history books.

And the vatican didnt have much to fear from hitler in WWII for a simple reason...Italy, Germany, and Japan...Axis of Evil, remember? Yet my point holds same, the fact is that the high rollers of the government of each country did a majority of the holocaust-esque things, while everyone else remained in the dark because of the fear that exposing would have brought about denouncing. Even if the problem's taken care of in silence, as long as its taken care of people dont really care how, like i said playing fear works right when done right.

You do realize of course, in the religion category, that stories are a method of teaching, right? You just bequeathed that you weren't listening when i said, there is only one, i believe it was either the Protestants or the Lutherans who follow the book as literal and true. Every other sect (excluding the oh...7% of fanatics in each sect) was founded on the same thing as the catholic church, the interpretation of the bible. The meanings of the stories change over time, if they didnt you think they'd still be around? Its the ability to change the interpretations based on the times so that it can still be used to teach that allows religions to persist, and still keep teaching the values. The fables have the same purpose, to teach people to not be sanctimonious assholes all of the time.
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Realist
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:37 pm  Reply with quote

Hitler used lots of things to get into power, but he was still a hell of a public speaker, and he knew how to run a crowd. I'm not saying his motives were anything but about the purest evil the world has ever seen, besides maybe Stalin, but many people really believed in what he was doing.

My point was that humans naturally try to assume the dominant role. There are certian passive people, but by and large people will take the oppertunity to get more athority if it presents itself.

Part of denouncement is that it throws you into more power than the people you're denouncing. But any time you speak out against someone's ideas it's denouncement, its all related to how forcefully you denounce it.

I still think that for only being a about a hundred thousand year old race, we're doing pretty well in terms of understanding something as vast as the universe.

A lot of the rest of the world had some clue, but many couldn't do anything about it, and many couldn't believe it. Most governments knew something was happening when refugees from Poland came telling stories of how jews they knew had been deported and never seen again. It's not a proud part of the Vatican's history, so they don't publicise it, but it's true.

My sister went to catholic school, and she has confermed my suspicion that most of the stories are taught as fact. There are some which are so grossly wrong that they are used only as fables, but stories such as, say, the exodus of the Jews from Egypt where Moses parted the Red Sea, that was taught as though it was true. There may only be one sect that uses the whole book as fact, but I bet there's only about one sect that teaches the whole book as fables too. All others probably fall somewhere in the middle.

Even if the book is taught entirely as fable, it should be read once, the morals learned, and then discarded like all the rest. Devoting your life to it is still incomprehensible to me.

I cannot understand why anyone would accept anything as a fact which had not been proven. You may doubt science as a way of telling us the answers of the universe, but it's still the best way we've come up with yet. Even personal experiences must be held in some suspision because we know just how easy it is to trick the human mind into thinking things that aren't real are happening. I can buy a bag of stuff that will do that to me for 70$ on a corner in New York. It's called Pot.
There are all these spritualist teachings, but I cannot follow the logic which led to many of the conclusions. Transport named many things, such as a library of the universe, and a energy field of love and joy, but I have yet to see how such a thing can be accessed or how you know it exists. If fasting, metitating, and nature are all it takes then why has it never been demonstrated for scientists? Scientists, or at least the good ones, are a fairly openminded bunch, and would probably be willing to try what you suggest, at least once. Find me a scientist with good, reliable information supporting your theories (perferably a online source) and we should continue this debate. Until then, as I've said before, you've got a theory looking for proof.
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transport22
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:56 am  Reply with quote

This article is by a physicts named Goswami. All about consciousness, matter, and science. Note the experiment from '82.
http://www.wie.org/j11/goswami.asp?ifr=dt&ifd=69

A collection of scientific papers on telepathy, contradiction between evolution (Darwin) & rational/logical belief systems (Descartes), consciousness, intuitive power of animals etc.
http://www.sheldrake.org/papers/

A collection of articles about psychology and religion.
http://www.cbel.com/psychology_and_religion/

Scientific studies on the power of prayer.
http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

Scientific study on effect of prayer on water.
http://www.alternative-doctor.com/soul_stuff/mercola_emoto.htm

Studies on the effects of Transcendental Meditation
http://mum.edu/tm_research/tm_charts/welcome.html

Studies about the chemical agent DMT in the pineal & entheogens.
http://www.rickstrassman.com/dmt/chaptersummaries.html

A huge ass collection of writings by scientists on the relationship between mystical/spiritual/religious experiences and entheogens/plant medicines.
http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/a_title.html

Index of spiritual experiences written by various scientists.
http://www.issc-taste.org/index.shtml
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Realist
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:40 am  Reply with quote

The way the article written about Mr. Goswami strongly suggests that while he has evidence, he has no proof. For example:
Quote:
Rooted in an interpretation of the experimental data of quantum physics

There are two contidionals in that statement. 1. Interpretation. 2. experimental. He is using his on intrepretation of data which is still only experimental to support his ideas. His ideas are also strongly rooted in the same basic kind of question as "if a tree falls in the forest and no one's around, is there any sound?" My answer is yes. Do I have any way to prove it? No, but when you are around a falling tree it makes sound. Why would it be different if you weren't there?

In responce to Mr. Sheldrake I point you to:
http://www.sheldrake.org/papers/Morphic/Rose_response.html
This gentleman sums up my ideas very nicely.

I looked at cebl.com, and again, they say they have found proof, but it is either tenious or they don't say what it is.

Plim.com has some interesting findings, but I want to know more. What percentages of people who recieved prayer did better? Actual numbers are not shown here; in fact, nothing but what he author says can be refrenced. They simply say "This happened" Without saying where it happened, who was involved, or where I can look for more information. It isn't a scientific report, this is a opinion piece.

The entire premise the article in alternative-doctor is flawed because we know that water is not alive. It is two hydrogen atoms fused together with a oxygen atom. Even in the very simplist lifeforms there are more elements, and there are always chemical reactions. In order for water to be alive it would need to fit the 5 required elements to being alive. Reproduction. Consumption of energy. Expultion a different kind of energy. Movement under it's own power. And one other I can't remember. But water doesn't fit any of these. Water, for those of us who attented 8th grade physical science class only turns into crystals when frozen. Spoken words and sounds have no real affect on the formation of these cystals. The final part of the so called experiement threw me into hysterics. The thought that, first, water can read, second, that water can read english, third, that water knew enough human history to make judgment calls about the people involved, is the funniest thing i've seen in many months.

OK, I admit I stated my objectives badly. Instead, find me one scientist who shows you the information he used to reach his conclusions, who also supports your ideas. Make sure that this scientist did a very clean job of his scientific experiments, and leaves nothing open to intrepretation. Then lets continue.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:09 pm  Reply with quote

Before i even respond to your post regarding mine, i'm sorry but that last demand is quite possibly the most arrogant and asenine thing i've ever heard in my life. I'm sorry, but the more of an arrogant ass you are the less people are willing to listen, remember that, it's why i avoid doing so in every single post i've ever made on this forum, and considering i'm about to break one thousand, its worked pretty well for incorporating ideas. I treat you as equal and listen to your ideas and present mine, i dont care if you believe them or not, i'm simply clarifying. Moving along back to the debate. I'm sorry but extreme arrogance is a major, MAJOR piss off point for me.

The masses believe anything if herded right, look at Mcarthy and the Red Scare over in the US. That was the same thing, people scared of "the evil commies" and so we have reason to shove ourselves all over the world into business regarding it! same basic thing Hitler did, all he did was play the crowd, and the point still stays the same, that people do an assload of crazy and stupid things when scared, and its a way to obtain loads of power in a biblically short amount of time.

Humans do try to assert control over others for the most part, no doubt about it. My bottom line in this arguement is that a good portion dont as well. There are many people who live to help others in any way possible and move on to help as many as available. Simple, no? And i dont see the person doing that as "dominant" i see them as helpful, and theres an interesting view that i believe fits in this arguement category here, "greatness cannot stand alone", and i'll see what interpretations come out of it.

Denouncement indeed, however force is what the key factor is. While denoucning your beliefs, i keep my bashing level at a minimum, and try to stick to points for the most part, as does everyone else around here. Did you read my debates with transport about his transport experience? of the even more ancient Datura battles? there were a few extreme posts later on in the latter of the two debates, but for the most part, we simply presented ideas, and if we couldnt convince, fine, we moved on, or we compromised, however this thread is becoming majorly redundant since you're blindly devoted to scientific proof alone and i'm blindly devoted to trying to show you how compromised ideas works and simply believing has its advantages. Simple reasoning, no?

And as you say, many people wouldnt believe it, they would probably assume that people were being deported to countries neutral to the war and out of the hair of the germans, i cant think of anyone who would hear that people were being rounded up and put on trains in an industrial nation and think "they're being put into huge ovens and being cremated alive", would you? i doubt it, the same would hold true for the rest of the world most likely.

*sigh* even if the stories are taught as fact, its up to you to believe them as you will, and my point is, that the extremes are not good on either end, and yes the rest fall in the middle. My point today is that even if taught as fact, the important part of the story is the values, not the actual story, and many people and even children understand that part of it, i know that my entire sunday school class did.

Aright...ive explained this about a hundred goddamn times! one more try! the only proof you have and need is yourself, its what you believe in that makes it real, what you believe in that brings it to life, and can cause it to die, if you can dream it it can be so, this holds especially true for beliefs. Hard scientific proof? you dont need it, thats my point, you dont need hard proof unless mindlessly addicted to it. And yes, you could buy pot, however you once again miss the entire point. Getting the brain to wrap itself around abstract ideas and such is a very difficult thing, as well as formulating beliefs and values. It's these things that allow ones metaphysical beliefs to expand, of course if you dont believe in them in the first place then trying to describe them is pointless. And unless theres anything constructive to say let's let this die out, our points have been made and its now just mindless bickering almost.

And one more thing, there are many scientific theories that have no proof but are basically deemed fact, such as dinosaur extinction, and the big bang theory, why? because they make sense, same thing can be applied to beliefs.
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