[Cam]

Catholics, Protestants, Penticostals, Baptists, etc.
Here's where you chime in and express how Christianity has
or has not helped lead you to enlightenment.

And other's that don't agree with Christianity, express your
views also!

[Datura]

I was born a Catholic, raised a catholic, and then became a, well, spiritual nihilist? Zen Philosophical Taosit? I dunno what you'd call me, but anyway...

Being raised a Catholic (from an Irish descent, no less) was... interesting. It certain helped in the complex department, and is one of the reasons I find any idea of sin in humans to be abhorent now. I'm very glad I grew out of it.

I actually had a discussion with my (Catholic) mother last night about why I think the Catholic church is crumbling, and one of those reasons is it's lack of democratisation or diversification.

But these are just my views.

I think Christian scriptures and histories are as interesting and cute as any other religion, but also excellent examples of how religious institutions should not be given the power they once were.

[nightbeest77]

actually it did quite a bit for me. it taught me many things that i need to do, and many things not to do. christianity is, in my opinion, one of the best religions to learn from cause they not only did some of the best things, but some of the worst as well, and it makes you want to be as much unlike it as you can. at least thats how it was with me

[sporaxis]

hmm...like most drugs, Christianity is a gateway to heavier drugs. Just kidding...sort of. I think ALL religions get/earn a bad name when the devoutly ignorant get all the press and attention. There are great Muslims, Christians, Jews, Pagans, all good people I'd love to do lunch with sometime, but they don't grab the headlines, and their wheels aren't squeaky enough for governments to oil, so we aren't exposed to the more humble elements of religion anymore except in rare personal instances. Frankly, letting the rabid loons run the show has hurt all of the major religions, but good spirits don't tend to seek out positions of power, they're over it already, so that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I went looking at an early age for an alternative to my grandmother's rabidly medieval fundamentalism. Some of her ideas are just too ignorant for anyone with any sense to buy into. I guess if she weren't so assinine I may never have even questioned religion. Sometimes I hope she's right about everything, because I'd love to send her a "Thank You" card from Hell. I would laugh for all of eternity.

[nightbeest77]

heh, well i guess that could be right. after all we can create worlds based on how we choose to see them, after all. besides, its like i said in another post, how do we KNOW that drugs are bad in the first place? after all they do many postive things if we happen to need them at a time. it kinda makes me wish i wasnt afraid to use them smoetimes when i let my mind reminesce too far.

Point/question being made: if religions are drugs that simply are an alternative way for the mind to percieve, then isnt everything a drug in its own right?

[Datura]

I don't like religions because of the power structure. Your personal spirituality: A-Okay! Organised Heirachy that uses spiritual and emotional and financial blackmail to retain power over the masses: Evil.

I can deal with it in secular society, because, living in a liberal democratic country, I do have a political voice and power. However, the heirachical structure of most religions, including ones that see themselves as more "liberal" and open-ended when it comes to it's structure like Church of England and Islam (HAH!) denies the lay-person power to change the upper levels and contribute to the religion's evolution.

[sporaxis]

nightbeast, yeah, I think you can turn anything into a drug for any reason, be it spiritual awareness, escape from reality, or you're immune system is whacked. i don't think forms of self-medicating are necessarily good or bad, but as with most things, when you're out of balance with them you get pretty squirrelly, and you scare other people with your squirrelliness, sometimes so much so that they contact their legislators about making your kind of squirrelliness illegal. (I'm not speaking of anything relating to myself personally, I swear. *evil grin*) Uhm...my point was...uhm...you could self-medicate with almost anything, I think this explains that whole Fuzziez N Furriez fetish thing...

datura: why is it easier to deal with in a secular setting? in america, we simply substituted government for religion. our government is of the same pyramid structure as most religions, with the leader, then a layer of lesser leaders, then a clerical layer of beaurocracy, then the lay folk. instead of tithing, we pay taxes. our voice and our power as laymen is limited by the upper tiers. if we're lucky, we can buy off the upper tiers for favors. we swear allegiance to the structure, die for it when asked, can be excommunicated (or expatriated) if we oppose it. instead of promising a pipe dream in the afterlife, we advertise a pipe dream possible in this life. how is this better or different from the religious world? hmm...

[nightbeest77]

it isnt, at least in spirit. its just renaming the concept and taking all the credit for it (see also: corporate america) its like a modern gold rush if you will, except the gold is the minds (and money) of the people that you are advertising to.

and another thing thats quite funny, most people are afraid of Islam, and it is, in fact, the most tolerant religion on the planet, having always allowed other religions equal voice and power if they so desired. with this in mind, can one say that their monotheistic (sp) religion is the more enlightened of the three major ones? (christianity, judiaism, and islam if youre wondering which ones specifically) i myself definitley think yes, however its like i always say, its all about the perceptions of the person themselves, so lets get those opinions out there! or in OTHER words...thoughts?

[Datura]

Sporaxis- I'm not American. Therefore, I appreciate and understand the power I have in my society, instead of lazily sitting back on my arse and going "woe, the problem is all too big. I can't do anything about it, so I'll go join the NRA instead".

Also, Australia has a far smaller population, lower population density, and an incredibly powerful media. If you know how to harness these factors, you have the power. Also, voting is compulsory.

[athênê]

[sporaxis]

nightbeast: promoting one religion vs another is like arguing pvc is better than lead pipe. yes, pvc is newer and slightly improved, but I'm going to flush the same stuff down it. all religions begin with a new/improved idea, but then they all degenerate into one tenant: perpetuation for exploitation. I would say "enlightenment" might be that state in which you no longer have to crap, therefore eliminating the need for any kind of sewer system at all.

I think this applies to comparing governments or types of democracies. Differentiating between Australian and American govt is like comparing Xtianity and Islam, pvc and lead pipe. New and improved still implies a lot of crapping and flushing going on.

morpheus: we are indeed witnessing a power grab the likes of which we have not seen since John Adam's administration. I can say no more, for fear of being flagged by Echelon (in which Australia and New Zealand, the UK, and Canada, and others participate. expatriation is futile.)

[mimo]

I find many of the texts attributed to Christianity to be brilliant. The gospels are a good example.

The Catholic Church I was raised in my earlier years was trash for the most part. Those in charge of educating the youth were either opinionated automatons or passive socializers that felt obligated to teach because of the sense of community inherent in the church.

But this was just my personal experiences. I'm sure there are good churches out there.

-mimo

[Datura]

For anyone who is Christian or interested in Christianity, I recommend anything by Rev. John Shleby Spong. The man almost made me want to convert to Episcopalian. Quite amazing.

[Realist]

The Christian chruch was a politial system. I refrence everyone here to The Davinci Code. The story is false, but all of the facts and deductions are reasonable. It also grants an incredible view into early christianity.

When thinking about any religion, pose this question. What problems, except for natural disasters, have not had something to with religion. The crusades. The holocaust. Terrorism today. Witch burning. The list goes on.

As to christianity in particular, I have a problem with any system that tells you that natural human desires are bad and the work of the devil is broken. The reason that humans are dominant today is because our ancestors were able to have sex more often and raise children better than any other species on the planet. The church has nuns, priest, and other such folk who believe sex is an evil thing. Why?

The modern church has some of the most outdated and dictatorial ideals still around. People may think islam has a monopoly on anti-femenism, but there are still some catholics who think women should sit down, shut up, clean house and make babies. Not exactly an elightened point of view. Some people still claim adam and eve were real, in spite of the problems with inbreeding. Some still insist that humans had to be designed by an intelegent being. If that's true, then why do men have nipples? No, wait, bear with me on this. They serve no reasonable purpose for men. There are many other residual organs we don't use. They're left over from ancestors we evolved from, which is another thing the church claims is false.

Look at former church policies. They were opposed to education because it allowed people to see flaws in their stories. The head of the Spanish Inquisition during the time of Gallieo was a scientist. When the issue of Gallieo came up he took a copy of the bible and ripped out everything he knew had to be false from his scientific experiences. He ended up with about 1/5 of it left. Now, 500 years later, how much is left of that book?

Sorry about the rant, but i have an issue with willing ignorance, which i see many members of the church and spiritual comminunity taking part in. This is just my two cents. Or three . . .

[nightbeest77]

...okay no speaking of the davinci code...its a freakin awful book, like stab me in the face cut of my hands fantastic. The views might be interesting, granted, but i thought up most of those on my own at some time or another before even picking up the damn book. I couldnt even keep it. i literally threw it out it was so poorly written...and i never do that...NEVER! anyway, back to the ideas, overlooking the crappy writing skills used.

To your paragraph, the entire belief system says that by supressing your desire you gain a certain gift. This is true, our entire lives today, SOCIETY, not the church, makes us restrain a good bit of "natural urges". Every time i see an attractive woman walking around, my first thought is "damn, she's hot". Do i run over and start having sex with her? no, would i like to? hell yes, im only human after all. The entire civlization is based about rechanneling energies to benefit the race as a whole as opposed to individual pleasure, thats why people do something they love when they're pissed off to take their minds off things, or at least thats why i do it.

And the reason why we (males) have nipples? did you cut biology class or something? The basic core DNA inside the egg in the uterus is that of a female. The sperm goes in and either says, "okay, you're going to be born a girl, so stay this way" or "you're going to be a boy, change accordingly" and it happens...nipples havnt been eliminated because its a gamble on which dna reaches it first...and you'll note how the different reproductive systems are just basically inside out versions of each other? And this was all proved by science...the church has caved and listens to science more openly than they used to.

And galileo also manipulated the system to get his ideas out, you cant forget, he's only one man, and what he believes may or may not have turned out to be right, but he was a scientist and proved his theories, but do an internet search for "failed scientific theories" and you'll see why sometimes science is full of hot air too.

And i know im basically using science flaws as a counterpart, but science is basically the core opposite of religion, proof as opposed to simply belief.