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Wisdom or Knowledge?
Wisdom
100%
 100%  [ 9 ]
Knowledge
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 9

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Datura
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:28 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
okay and you're saying that if it had started out being a matriarchal that it would have been different?


Did I say that? Did I say that anywhere? I think you're jumping to circumstantial conclusions my assuming friend.

I said, in my original post, that we must dispense with the patriachal views of good and evil that have driven us into ridiculously flawed states of existence and repression. Did I say we had to swing to the other extreme anywhere and put women in charge? No. Did I even imply it? No. If you think I did, you seriously need your head read.

As for you comments concerning "What if women came to power now", I said that myself. Current human society is set in a world of extremes, black and white, simplistic terms. The predjudiced majority would take power, and much delight, in getting their revenge. And I think its sad that's how our social conditioning works.

Quote:
and yet these are the same people who say "behind every great man there is a great woman."


I don't. I know, behind a lot of them is another man, or a big army. What's your point? Did I say that anywhere at all, or is this just more baseless posturing?

Honestly, whenever I start talking about this, men seem to get offended, like I'm blaming you geeks or something. As though somehow, you seem to think you're the ones who've made society the way it is. Sorry fellas, but I hate t bust your ego, but No.

But when I get offended by comments made by people about the way people perceive the feminine, I get told to shut up. *rolls eyes* Or get called a bitch. That's a common one for a strong woman. Yeah, I hear that one a lot.
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Zenzirouj
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:15 pm  Reply with quote

Datura wrote:
Quote:
and yet these are the same people who say "behind every great man there is a great woman."


I don't. I know, behind a lot of them is another man, or a big army. What's your point? Did I say that anywhere at all, or is this just more baseless posturing?


Ok, that was an example. If you'll notice, I started out by pointing out a common flaw in this type of an argument, you'll also notice that I moved on to my response to YOU after saying this. I never said this was your view, just that I enjoy the phallacy of the argument.

Datura wrote:
Honestly, whenever I start talking about this, men seem to get offended, like I'm blaming you geeks or something. As though somehow, you seem to think you're the ones who've made society the way it is. Sorry fellas, but I hate t bust your ego, but No.
Datura wrote:
Because our current model of society is a form that has evolved from the era of Men.


I'm pretty sure you just said that.

In any case, I think the problem was that you got off topic there, talking about how men in control have done all this stupid stuff, etc. Even though men have been in control (or so we assume, perhaps The League of Women have actually been in control...::peers suspiciously::), it seemed to me that you were insinuating that men are violent and cause problems whenever they're in control. Maybe you didn't mean this, so I'll just ignore it.

But getting back to the main argument, I don't think that good and evil are necisarilly childish, because while they fluctuate depending on who's in control, they generally operate in order to make the most people happy. While this usually coincides with allowing the powerful to stay in power, I'd like to think that some people actually care about the lives of their subjects. I don't think that power eliminates the humanity of the person in power, just that many of them go down that path.

So while good and evil aren't set standards, that doesn't mean they're pointless.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:03 am  Reply with quote

fine. you didnt say it but it was very well inferred. i think most people would pull that meaning out of it. and fine, you can continue being a feminazi if you choose. thats your right, so stick to it. i'll just pretend that i dont care!

okay, and yes back to the main arguement, please. regardless of what crap we were spouting earlier. and once again i have more followers! yay for zenzy! (you actually made the point about the ruling government thing that i was planning to.........get out of my head GET OUT OF MY HEAD!)

and exactly! but while they might not be set standards, they are the standards for many people to act how they do.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:07 pm  Reply with quote

yes!

it's all in the perception!

and so another thread ends... muahahahaha *cough*

i've come to the conclusion that that's about right, though. they're standards to be sure, but not set at all... which is what i said originally if i recall...

so that's that.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:30 am  Reply with quote

oh cmon! its far easier to beat the dead horse than club a new baby seal!

(one of the most politically incorrect analogies ever!!! GO ME!)

im in a very odd mood today.
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Datura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:09 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
you didnt say it but it was very well inferred.


...
You really are very very sad.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure you just said that.


If you somehow think that you are the same as the many powerful male figures and bastions of the Patriachy that have formed this world, you really do have a very... interesting... ego.

Quote:
I enjoy the phallacy of the argument.


*snickers*

Quote:
Maybe you didn't mean this, so I'll just ignore it.


Good, because I didn't.

Quote:
you can continue being a feminazi


I am not a misandrist (the real grown-up word for "feminazi") I just know my culture.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:50 am  Reply with quote

Quote:
...You really are very very sad.


y'now, despite the fact that most of your arguements are made from inferred conclusions from my own you feel that its quite sad as well. the pot calling the kettle black.

Quote:
If you somehow think that you are the same as the many powerful male figures and bastions of the Patriachy that have formed this world, you really do have a very... interesting... ego.


and since you feel that you are better because you think what you do? your ego is only MORE interesting.

Quote:
I am not a misandrist (the real grown-up word for "feminazi") I just know my culture.


Oh, im sorry if your culture is the exact same views that they have. coincidence or not, you still fit the bill as qualifying as one of them.
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Datura
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:23 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh, im sorry if your culture is the exact same views that they have. coincidence or not, you still fit the bill as qualifying as one of them.


How exactly do I do that? Am I a lesbian because I hate men? No. Do I go around discriminating against them in my day-to-day life because I hate them? No. Do I even hate men (ie- misandry)?... hell no.

How exactly do I fit the bill?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:27 am  Reply with quote

Quote:
How exactly do I do that? Am I a lesbian because I hate men? No. Do I go around discriminating against them in my day-to-day life because I hate them? No. Do I even hate men (ie- misandry)?... hell no.


i never said you did, and i wasnt referring to that part of it. i was talking about the core beliefs. though there are many that DO do that *snicker* (and this isnt directed at you, just at the general population of them, as ive ranted in the previous posts, one should know why)

Quote:
How exactly do I fit the bill?


in the core beliefs, that men are the root of all evil and never gave any chances or breaks to women in the past, despite the fact that many Amerind tribes had women as the "chiefs" (dont remember what they called them, sorry my mind IS in fact shit at remembering specific names) and there were numerous town all over revolutionary period America that allowed women to vote. i can get the specific date for you if you like. my point is your posts were saying basically what i said in the first line(s). While men did cause a host of problems, they didnt cause (a) all of them or (b) never give any rights at all to women, and it would have probably been the exact same only opposite. *belch* okay, so you're not a complete one, but the comments sparked a bunch of hatred that i have for ignorant people who discriminate on stupid bounds. sorry, just an irk of mine.
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Datura
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:54 pm  Reply with quote

Okay, that's cute and all, except I'm not American. Nor does America count as much as many within it's borders like to think it does. Nor have I ever been taught much American history (thank sweet josephmaryandjesus) but thank you for filling me on with those cute little tidbits. Nor did I ever say males did not "give women anything" (whatever that's supposed to mean). Nor did I say men are the root of all evil. You lot really do make some ridiculous assumptions. In fact, my original post was that any assumption of "good" and "evil" is redundant and impermanent, and should not be used as some sort of rhetorical judgement ever. I just said that things are the way they are, and they could not be any other way (we are still alive).

Sorry if your posts just add to my hatred of people who make uninformed baseless assumptions.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:05 am  Reply with quote

Good for you. then what history or culture have you been taught? European history which is the exact same in almost every aspect.

And you didnt say they did give any to women either. and the rest of the post did lead everyone that read it to, more likely than not, drew that conclusion. oh and saying that men did all this bad shit and its why the world is like it is and is shitty ISNT saying that they're the root of all evil (modern evil if you want to be technical).

and seeing as how you used the patriarchal society as a depiction of the root of "evil" and used so many examples of how it has done many dehabilitating things to society one draws the conclusion that you believe it is evil.

um...............you must hate yourself quite a lot then, because you make PLENTY of unform baseless asumptions here as well. i believe our first duel against each other was you jumping on a technicality and drawing an assumption from it, then beating it into the ground.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:21 pm  Reply with quote

hmm... i'd like to add that i've kind of been lost throughout ths entire arguement on each other's beliefs and tendencies, and i also see very little that the last five posts have to add to the disucssion, but since it's getting interesting, i'll let it slide.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:00 pm  Reply with quote

well they havn't added much, we've been attacking each others technicalities and trying to destroy each others arguements even though we can technically neither be right or wrong. even though it seems like a stupid way to believe to me, and my way seems stupid to believe to datura. its the way the world works with different people and different minds.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:30 pm  Reply with quote

"and so, the warriors beget the long arduous task of breaking each other's defence, of finding chinks in each other's armour. neither see the arrow"

WHY can't you be wrong or right? prove it!

of course, by now you've realized that you can't prove it if your belief holds true, and if you try to, you'll prove yourself wrong in the attempt. come on, beestie, break my defence!
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:55 pm  Reply with quote

easy, yours is too. you cant tell what i can and cant do, i can very easily if i choose to comptemplate for an extended period of time what datura was trying to say and counter it. however i choose not to, since i believe that she can think what she so chooses, and in the end i can do little or nothing to change it.

I simply say that my beliefs are those that make a more enjoyable life of optimism, never said there was anything wrong with what she was believing anyway, i just said that i thought it was wrong.

that enough chinks? *arrow hits thoth*
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