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Wisdom or Knowledge?
Wisdom
100%
 100%  [ 9 ]
Knowledge
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 9

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thoth87
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:31 am  Reply with quote

*nods*
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:19 am  Reply with quote

hmm............methinks one is just trying to catch up to me in posts, hmmmmmmmmmmm yeessssss..........the precious.......................
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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:47 pm  Reply with quote

allright then, i'll do it this way...

AHEM>>>

Define good and evil for me, in terms that will make me say "ah, so that's what you think they are" and not "ah, so that's what they are"

remember, all things are subjective...

he he he...
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:44 pm  Reply with quote

867-5309....NO! DAMN YOU TOMMY TUTONE!

and aright, but these are very vague definitions for a reason, remember that!

Good is what generally benefits a lot of people and or is not oppressive towards someone for spite, what the stereotypical hero usually does in movies, cartoons, etc.

Evil is just the opposite, benefiting a few people and oppressing for little or no reason at all....just because they breathe your air for example, like the villains do in movies, cartoons, etc.

Thats my story and i'm stickin to it.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:22 am  Reply with quote

allright, now here's MINE:

there is no good or evil. sure, some may act more benevolent and kinder, and others more selfish and cruel, but we're all hu-mans in the end... or rather, the begining. of course, good and evil, although some of the most important concepts ever concieved, are some of the most relative. i mean, in the forties, America was battling the 'Damn Commies' 'cause America thought they were evil. at the same time, the 'Damn Commies' believed that they were, good, and right, and just and fair. same as the Jews and Nazis. Hitler believed that what he was doing was the right thing, while everyone else was positive that he was the most evil thing since Satan. who's right? well, in society today, it's whoever wins the war. history is written by the winner, and so are the laws and Doctrines of tomorow.
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Datura
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:02 pm  Reply with quote

Good and Evil are not Majority/Minority. In fact, they tend to be the other way around.

Both morals and ethics (I would argue) are based on the dominant minority in power (which has been, for the past 7000-10 000 years, the Patriachy). That minority in power dictates what is good for them, then convinces the masses through emotion, poor logic, buy offs and lies, that its also good for the middle class and the stupider ones of the lower class.

However, the model that has constantly been recycled throughout history is that this always lead to a huge underclass that are somehow dictated "morally wrong" because they dont fit into the narrow stereotype of the minority who is ruling. This majority usually brews for a while until their numbers become so disproporionate to the upperclass (as in, what is happening now) that the only way for nature to fix things is some sort of social or biological revolution.

However, what usually happens, is that after that revolution, new morals and ethics are put in place, so that the persecuted underclass can have their eras of revenge on those who persecuted them, which then means the pendulum swings back to persecute those who were once the minority in power.

Solution: dispense with patriachal monotheistic notions of good and evil and grow the feck up.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:41 pm  Reply with quote

i gotta agree with the good tending to be the majority. Much of the socialist view about why they would be good at governing really does hold true for it. but then again, you have to realize the flaws with the human nature too. but i dont wanna get into the political arguement, just supportin ya Dat, hope ya dont mind! (its an new thing for us!)

And that flaw with human nature is the classic "it comes back to bite you on the ass" syndrome (as i call it), whereas it should be that the oppressed should say "we're better than that stupid mindset, screw all of the laws like that" but its that syndrome in the end.

and why does believing in good and evil a childish thing? and why is it patriarchal? where the HELL did the patriarchal come from? it would be that way regardless of how the society was oriented. i'll give my own little psychological rant about that if you really want to know why i believe that.

But other than that, perhaps you should grow the feck up and embrace them? thoughts? comments? snide remarks?

*bite me!*




.....ow......
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thoth87
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:43 pm  Reply with quote

all of that support, and yet nothing brought against my own views? wow. load the cannon with no target in sight, i suppose.


meh.
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Datura
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:44 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
and why does believing in good and evil a childish thing?


Because good and evil are nothing but simulations. As nebulous and changing as everything else in this universe. Human judgements, in the grand scheme of things, really mean squat.

Quote:
and why is it patriarchal? where the HELL did the patriarchal come from? it would be that way regardless of how the society was oriented.


Because our current model of society is a form that has evolved from the era of Men. Simply as that. I'm not a raving misandrist, but take a look back through the majority of history that has gone into forming our beliefs about good and evil and morals and value judgements on people, and it all relates back as to how someone compares with the 50th percentile upper class male.

Take, for example, people's problems in the West with homosexuality. Most it stems from their Christian or post-Christian or Monotheistic upbringing of some form, but they don't *actually* know why. They're jut told "That's the way it is" or "Because YHWH/Allah said so" (the most pathetic excuse ever). But why do these religions hate homosexuality? For the sole reason that to Judaism (the root of these backward beliefs) it involved a man "lowering" him to the position of a woman: ie- being the receiver and the passive instead of the active and the dominant. Women were only valued just above cattle and a little below a man's home, and you can find numerous examples of this throughout the Torah (and Bible, and Qu'ran) in a short browse. If a man, the supposed epitomy of God's talent, skill, and image, somehow broke the moral code and did something that was not truly manly, it was a horrendous sin. But you know, in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, they don't mind offering up their young virgin daughters or wives or concubines to the violent mob (and in one version, the concubine ends up dead and mutilated on the man's front porch the morning after, but who cares?).

Persecution of racial difference? Cheap labour and repression of a threat to the White-man's "purity" (and therefore his control). Gender inequality and female predjudice? Again, economic and sexual control. Even the Caste system in India? Well, only genetically pure-born Brahmin men are at the top. Communism and Socialism? "Temporary Military Dictator" my arse. How Temporary has any of them ever been? Honestly, you give that sort of an excuse to an insitution filled with the dumb underclass and men with too little brains and too much power (ie, the military) and you expect some sort of utopian society to bloom?

However.

I don't doubt that this is a phase humanity is going through. Call it childhood, angsty teenage years, whatever. It was bound to happen. The era before this was that tied to the woman, the mother, as the magical giver of life. Then, as nomadic tribes became more permanent, and humans learned to control their environment (instead of nature controlling it) the male half of the population learned to control other things as well, which they had previously associated with the "magical" forces of the world around them (the female reproductive force). Except their dicks of course, but that's beside the point. Anything and everything associated with the feminine became evil, and we're only just beginning to get over it.

This, of course, does not mean that if women were magically in charge tomorrow things would suddenly be better. Anyone who thinks that, or even thinks its a logical argument, is a moron. But I do have hope for the future, just I'll probably never get to see it. We've spent the past couple of eaons swinging between extremes (good/evil, female/male, nature/technology etc etc) without realising it's all the same. Morals are just another form of simulating the extremes, without ever understanding them. [/b]
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:32 pm  Reply with quote

okay and you're saying that if it had started out being a matriarchal that it would have been different? bull and shit, m'lady. the exact same thing would have happened in reverse, and we'd be the new "feminazis" of the age. You cant blame it on the sexes, religion, or anything else, because when you look back on it, it was the way the world worked. Its changing, yes, but change takes time. welcome to the stubborn part of the human condition. Its the part of us that fears change that tends to do this kind of thing to us. and i'll place some money on that after women become completely free of all discrimination in society and are in power to inflict it, they will put some towards males. its like the revenge thing that we have been talking about in regards to why the machines made/have the same character flaws that we do.

And im still confused as to how the !@$#!@#$@#$ you originally pulled that out of your ass but theres your counter. enjoy.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:33 pm  Reply with quote

yes, i'd like to agree with you to that end, Beest, that that's the way the world worked. as of right now, you can't change how it worked anyway, but what i find reasuring is that we can change how it will work...

and so, my schemes and plots begin to take form...
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:49 pm  Reply with quote

Exactly! regardless of how it worked, we can always change how it will work, regardless of the time it takes to do so! change and choice are always our options. its really, once again, how you choose to believe.
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Zenzirouj
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:58 pm  Reply with quote

You know, it always cracks me up when feminists use the old "men have been in control for centuries, and that's why the world sucks", and yet these are the same people who say "behind every great man there is a great woman."

In any case, it's easy to use the Hindsight Bias to say that "men have been in control for hundreds of years and now the world is violent, therefore men are violent". The truth is, there's no way to know either way. It's interesting, if you check the statistics, 10% of corporate complaints of abuse are filed by MEN who have been abused by female superiors, and about 13% of high-ranking corporate officers are female. The rates of female abuse in corporations are much, MUCH higher than male, not to mention 50% of examples of female abuse against men go unfiled.

Perhaps there's not so much of a difference, eh?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:10 pm  Reply with quote

or perhaps these are the men who enjoy being the bitch?

whichever the case, its basically agreed that its a two way street, even if we dont acknowledge it, since most people would go crying back to the fact that "oh the old days are coming back" and "thats not politically correct" and what not...*grumble*
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:19 pm  Reply with quote

with the intersection that it don't really matter either way, but hey, that's the road i'm taking.
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