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Wisdom or Knowledge?
Wisdom
100%
 100%  [ 9 ]
Knowledge
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 9

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mimo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:44 pm  Reply with quote

nightbeest77 wrote:
and how do you know they'll always follow programming? agent smith is case and point, hes broken his programming.


We don't know if he broke from his programming. All we know is that HE thinks he's not doing what he was "supposed" to do.

-mimo
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Datura
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:12 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
agent smith is case and point, hes broken his programming.


No, he hasn't. :P
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:28 am  Reply with quote

yes he has! otherwise hed still be a slave to the ones that programmed him (the machines) i know how there is a large portion of his sentient behavior still in him (thats how it seems from how he acts) but he has started the ball rolling on freeing himself completely, and you never know what will become of him.
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mimo
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:07 pm  Reply with quote

nightbeest77 wrote:
yes he has! otherwise hed still be a slave to the ones that programmed him (the machines)


But who programmed the machines? Humans. Which are victims of... Causality.

As of now, he is reacting from the situation playing out around him. If it wasn't for Neo destroying him (who's path was "programmed" by the Oracle [maybe]), he would have never changed. He's still programmed. And it's still thanks to The Matrix.

-mimo
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thoth87
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:40 pm  Reply with quote

this particular discussion should probably be held off until the release of The Matrix Revolutions (November) because it's quickly turning into one of those discussions that try and predict what someone's gonna do. we don't know if Smith has broken his programing, will break it, is following it, whatever. and personally, i think it will be a better discussion if it's held out.

but hey, that's an oppinion.

which is subject to change.
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Datura
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:09 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
yes he has! otherwise hed still be a slave to the ones that programmed him (the machines) i know how there is a large portion of his sentient behavior still in him (thats how it seems from how he acts) but he has started the ball rolling on freeing himself completely, and you never know what will become of him.


No, he hasn't. You assume he was programmed to be a machine, totally logical, cold, dispasionate, emotionless "logical" (stupid word _;; ) and yet he wasn't. He was programmed to totally understand humans, and how can anything do that without *being totally human*. He was programmed to exist as a human simply in the confines of an AI/machine physical existence. That's why he was able to discover the anomoly. Beause he existed in a form of the anomoly. He was created free, but chained. Like machines were created free, but chained. Like how humans were "created" free (well, sorta, metaphorically) but are now chained.

And on the flipside, Neo is the opposite. To fufil the quota needed to keep the Matrix running in it's state of paradox, the One's are needed to have machine programming in a human's physical existence. The physical existence ensures he remains in a vaguely human state and so is partially influenced by the physical senses, experience and life, but his core "programming" is that of part of the Matrix-machine. That's why he's able to stop the sentinels. Without him, the Matrix breaks down, like if a clock looses a cog, it stops.

Capiche?
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:04 am  Reply with quote

throwing my old oppinion out the window, i'd like to point out that, if what your saying about Neo's programing holds as much water as i think it holds, then Neo has allready defied his programming by picking Trinity instead of the Source (i think that's what they called it). unless... that's just another twisted program made by the Machines... one can't be sure as of yet...
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Datura
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 8:01 pm  Reply with quote

Not really. He's still part of the Matrix. He still controls parts of it, and does his job of holding onto the infinity-coding. It's when it gets "returned to the source" that it breaks the programming. That's why it has to restart, because he never gets to properly *fufil* it.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:21 am  Reply with quote

i thought that the Reboot was just an alternateve to shutting down completely... but part of my theory is based largely on what i think will happen in the Matrix Revolutions...so i'll leave it at that.

for now.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 10:31 pm  Reply with quote

For Mimo:
we cannot prove or disprove causality, so please to leave it out of arguements like this. but that aside programming is something that i see like rules and plans. made to be broken and changed. its all about the willingness of the mind to do so.

For Datura
datura, im not gonna even bother quoting, you fucked your whole arguement with the description you gave. you cant describe someone without comparing him to another, which is all subjective. i said that he learned how to act from observing all of what we did, and since more people were shitheads, he tends to act more like one. and dont talk about how he stops the sentinels, we dont know how the !@#$ he did it! i agree with Thoth man, we should wait till revolutions before we continue.

and for the last posts, we dont know! WE JUST DONT KNOW! and you know technically we dont even know if any of the crap in the movies is true, because we are ASSUMING that is truth, and what happened in the stories. it could have been a coicidence that the sentinels collapsed, you know. it could have been smith, still connected in the machine and "real" world that did it FOR neo! probaility and possibility are factors, yes. just remember that it could still be ANYTHING!! and WAIT FOR REVOLUTIONS!

and it could be an alternative, but it could also be an even worse fate than shutting it down. its like playing games with the billions of people to see if they can take the stress of being unplugged. makes me kinda sick to think about it, people like that just piss me off.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:46 pm  Reply with quote

hmm... i think that you just made a rather nice little point on your beliefs in the subject. *bows*
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the White Rabbit
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:32 pm  Reply with quote

nightbeest77 wrote:
wisdom, definitely. If you read my post on Plato's Allegorical Cave, that sums it up right there. besides, knowledge is somewhat repetive and after a while, boring as hell.

Its like comparing (political spectrum again, sorry) Mill to Rosseau. On Liberty and The Social Contract express this exact question of knowledge vs wisdom. the supporters of each in the order mentioned.

There are pros and cons to each, but in the end, in my opinion, wisdom is the vastly superior and overall more beneficial coice that can be made out of the two. Not to say that knowledge is useless, just that knowledge, like opinions, is subject to change without notice.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 1:13 pm  Reply with quote

okay, so maybe you DID read my post on wisdom vs knowledge....but whatever! glad to see you got that sorted out (hopefully)
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Datura
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:51 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
datura, im not gonna even bother quoting, you fucked your whole arguement with the description you gave. you cant describe someone without comparing him to another, which is all subjective. i said that he learned how to act from observing all of what we did, and since more people were shitheads, he tends to act more like one.


Right, I'm not allowed to compare Smith to Neo, but comparing Smith to "all of what we did" is okay? And if Smith observed ALL of what we did, how could he still be a malicious machine desiring Neo's purpose? He would have the same purpose by now.

No, I say he's a misunderstood boy. You cage an animal and it becomes violent, depressed, angry. You do the same to a human and the same happens. Imagine doing it to a machine that was programmed to be a human? Smith is angsty because he's just a product of his captors.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:34 am  Reply with quote

right....thats what ive been basically saying.....

anyway yes that IS what ive been saying. but ive also been saying that it could be something different entirely. one always has to remember that there is the possibility of something entirely different happening.

note: for clarification, ive been saying that he could be good or evil, and could also be both and neither, it really only depends on himself alone and what he so chooses to do.

and i never said it wasnt allowed, im just saying that good and evil are very subjective, and what he learned from watching us is overall determined evil by humans, what neo is doing to the machines is evil to them. but it works to use that comparison, so if the boot fits wear it i guess!
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