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athênê
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 Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:09 pm |
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| The Er wrote: | Really why should we put our existance over that of any other form of life?
Some sugest that it's our sentincy (Don't even assume that's spelt right) that sets us appart, but other animal are also self-aware, i mean almost any form of life will try and continue it's own existance, and in most cases feal the enevitable pain of death, so why should our death mean so much more? |
This does have something to do with sentience, or self-awareness, and I agree that other animals have self-consciousness. My late beloved dog was a complete comedian, and he loved to be the center of attention and did goofy things in the hope that he'd get a laugh. Other people may think this is rubbish, but I KNOW it to be the case. Dolphins, chimps, etc., also show clear signs of self-consciousness, but I for one don't really know how to define it.
One thing I do believe: one of the characteristics of self-consciousness is an awareness of, and a grieving for, another creature's death. Elephants mourn, and not just in the Babar book or in Dumbo. Dogs do too: my friend had two dogs who were best friends, one a Great Dane and the other a cairn terrier, and when one died the other mourned. The friend had the Great Dane's remains cremated and placed in an urn in a sort of special shrine, which had his toys, collar, etc. (This was a family that LOVED animals!) This was in an area of the house where there were similar shrines for the other dogs that had passed away. The cairn terrier would sit faithfully in front of the Great Dane's shrine everyday, with his head on his paws.
Now, the sceptics among you may point out that the terrier could easily have recognized his pal's toys, collar, etc. Fair enough. But here's the thing: my friend, seeing this odd and touching behaviour, did an experiment. He moved the Great Dane's ashes to another one of the shrines, swapping out one urn with another. There was no way for the dog to detect anything visually, and he was out of the room when this cremation shell-game was being set up.
The next day, the cairn terrier plopped himself right down in front of the Great Dane's ashes, which were now in a totally different place. Each time they changed the location of the ashes, the terrier moved his place of mourning accordingly. He faithfully paid tribute to his pal in death every day.
This, needless to say, persuaded me that either (1) a dog's sense of smell is unbelievably acute, and that a mammal's unique scent exists even after death or (2) my disbelief in the existence of an immortal soul needs to be reassessed. (Actually, I kind of believe that there is a heaven for dogs, even though I don't think there's a heaven for humans--go figure!)
So, back to the issue of sentience: I believe that it is sentience, or self-consciousness, that assigns value to death. Creatures that live purely in the moment, without attachment, whether they are butterflies or Tibetan lamas, do not assign value to death because death is a concept that exists only in the past and the future: the living mourn the dead because they will no longer have the contact they had in the past, and the living mourn also for all the future happiness that will never be. Grieving requires attachment, in the spiritual sense of the word. Self-consciousness might be better described as the ability to sense attachment to the material world, to events, to the passage of time, to all that is illusory. |
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nightbeest77
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:57 pm |
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one also must remember, do the bugs even want to be saved? do they want to help themselves instead? do they want chicken, liver, and meow mix delivered? you always have to put that factor into the eqation as well, i mean take the US occupancy of Iraq and Afghanistan, they want us to get the hell out so they can do it themselves since we eliminated the problem that was ruling the countries.
And Morpheus (i will forever call you morpheus because i was here way back then) i must agree with what you put forth. sums up most of what we've had floatin around forever and puts a new spin on it.
and to end with a line from a song (if you like old canadian bands this should ring a bell) "You can call me Pavlov's dog" (dont know if i spelled his name right) i think that experiment also sums up this entire forum pretty well too. |
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athênê
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:29 pm |
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Well, the reincarnation camp would say that bugs are lower down on the enlightenment totem pole because they haven't done something of merit to move up. Of course, that presupposes that there's such a thing as a soul.
About the military occupations--this raises an interesting point. The imposition of one society's set of values on others (because that's what occupation and empire-building does) is just the modern-day version of missionary work. The idea that one person can save another has always been contentious, and not limited to any one culture or religion. Even Buddhism has the tradition of the Bodhisattva:
http://web.presby.edu/~gramsey/bodhisattva.html |
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thoth87
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:25 pm |
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well, for those of you who don't know, i've become apprenticed to a second-degree blackbelt kickboxer. now, this has a point, so bear with me...
anywho, my Sensei ran me through three lessons allready. firstly, he said, you must learn how to meditate correctly and do so often. secondly, your senses must be trained to the point that, if you were to suddenly go blind, you would be more than capable of functioning as if you could still see. the third lesson is the most difficult. he said i must develop a sixth sense, one used to feel when my friends and family members are in trouble so that i may do my best to aid them. of course, i'm still working on that last lesson, but it struck me as odd that kickboxing was such a defensive art.
just a little anecdote to lead to my question/discusion starter: why? what causes humans to feel such a need to protect and save each other? |
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nightbeest77
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:53 pm |
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The same need that causes some humans to harm each other. The instinct that comes from the type of upbringing that one recieves. I myself feel the same way as you do, due to the fact that im well aquainted with many people of the former of the two categories.
It's fairly simple to understand, some strike out at others because they think that others deserve to feel the pain and anguish, and/or because they like feeling what they do when they inflict pain. Ones who protect are those who have probably been through similar experiences, however decided that they would prevent anyone from ever having to experience it to the greatest of their abilities, and/or they like the feeling they get when they aid others. at least thats what it seems to be for the most part, it of course is subject to many and quite extensive exceptions.
Then again im probably completely and utterly wrong, so think what you will! |
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thoth87
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:40 pm |
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| actually, that really does sum it up in my mind. hmm. |
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athênê
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:11 pm |
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| thoth87 wrote: | | anywho, my Sensei ran me through three lessons allready. firstly, he said, you must learn how to meditate correctly and do so often. secondly, your senses must be trained to the point that, if you were to suddenly go blind, you would be more than capable of functioning as if you could still see. the third lesson is the most difficult. he said i must develop a sixth sense, one used to feel when my friends and family members are in trouble so that i may do my best to aid them. |
The blindness metaphor, which of course harkens back to the ancient tradition of the sightless prophets like Tiresius (in Oedipus Rex, et al.), is used rather brilliantly in Revolutions, without the cheesiness and simplemindedness of, say, George Lucas' whole blindfolded "Jedi" thing. (I am NOT a Star Wars fan, obviously.) Being able to perceive the world around you without reliance on your senses is the central underpinning of nearly every martial art, whether soft or hard in style. I hope you'll keep us posted about your progress and about any mini-lessons he gives you to develop this ability further.
This post grabbed my attention too because my major lesson for the year 2003 has been learning to trust my instincts. In addition, I've become a fervent believer in the "sixth sense" you describe and have been placing more trust in it, even though it's not only useful for protecting yourself or others. Again, it's an extension of the blindness exercise and is the ability to look beyond the evidence of your senses. I hope you'll also describe what you observe about your "remote sensing" experiences with your friends' and relatives' safety--any ideas you have for developing this would be a great addition to the "Personal Experiences" forum.
On a related but tangential note, during the past 6 months I've had numerous instances of having a strong, persistent sense that something was going to happen and then watched as it did happen. And we're talking about fucking weird shit here--not just unconsciously interpreting empirical clues, but having a strong feeling (or knowledge) that someone I hadn't seen in years, someone who had moved away a long time ago, would imminently appear in my hometown; within only a couple months I ran into him in a store on a Saturday morning. No contact, no common friends or connections, just voilà! He shows up! And when it happened, I wasn't the least bit surprised (but he was, and he's a TKD blackbelt. Go figure!).
I've talked about this phenomenon with one of my Buddhist friends, who says that meditation is the primary reason for this starting to happen with greater frequency and precision. It's letting yourself be the Oracle! |
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thoth87
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:29 pm |
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see, now that's rather interesting. i recall you saying something along the lines of starting meditation classes or somesuch, and i'm assuming that this is what you're describing.
as for the blind excersises, well, it's painful. i'm blindfolded, and then we box. not full force, but it's still causes a nice little ache here and there. i'm not QUITE bad... i'm getting better.
and i'm with you on the star-wars thing... deffinately NOT my gig. |
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nightbeest77
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:00 pm |
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i was bored a few days ago, so i tried doing several household things blindfolded. i made sure nobody was home so as to not spill crap all over people, and im quite glad. i would up cleaning up a lot. But it just took time and a few tries and it got a lot easier.
and have any of you seen the family guy version of the star wars training? thats an interesting take on it too. |
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thoth87
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:04 pm |
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what kind of household tasks, might i ask?
and no, haven't seen the family-guy version, but that is such a great show. i watch maybe an hour of TV a week... and that's prolly about half of that hour. the other half is The Simpsons... |
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nightbeest77
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:36 pm |
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heh, very true, very true. i hardly ever watch tv anymore. mostly its just computer time now. tv just kinda makes me sick (we all remember the rant on fox news that i did before)
and it was just trying to put food away, which i wound up spilling all over the place, nothin serious. |
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thoth87
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 1:59 pm |
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at your own house? because, if my theory is correct, your body can become so attuned to surroundings that you frequent, little challenge will be presented to you should you try such an endeavor in such frequented surroundings.
that's that. now, anything else to be added to the thread? |
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nightbeest77
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:25 pm |
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well we only moved last year, and i dont go into the kitchen much. besides there was ice all over the floor that was never brought to my attention until the last possible moment. If we'd done it in my old house I know i would have been able to do it, since i did it once before there too.
and yes, thats very true. i dodged a chair and slipped on some ice. woulda landed right on my face if i hadnt caught myself just in time. (i wound up landing on the other end) oh well. |
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thoth87
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:56 pm |
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hmm...
ice eh? what phenomenon caused that?
on a side note, Meditation for kick-boxing is rather uncanny, or it's effects at least. not bad-uncanny, but just kinda uncanny. i'd assume they're similar to earlier stages of what Athene described earlier... but deffinately not to the extent that those she described were.
on another side note, i suggest you try it. everyone. |
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nightbeest77
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:43 pm |
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the phenomenon of my mom pouring coke into a glass of ice that came from the fridge, and not having all the ice make it into the cup in the first place! *twilight zone music*
and ive actually been thinking about trying out martial arts for a while now, any good tips as to which one would be best to start with? i'll probably eventually wind up trying a bit of everything, if i can. |
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