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athÍnÍ
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2003 9:09 pm  Reply with quote

First, some say that all human experience is based on destiny; second, some hold that everything is created by God and controlled by His will; third, some say that everything happens by chance without having any cause or condition.

If all has been decided by destiny, both good deeds and evil deeds are predetermined, weal and woe are predestined; nothing would exist that has not been foreordained. Then all human plans and efforts for improvement and progress would be in vain and humanity would be without hope.

The same is true of the other viewpoints, for, if everything in the last resort is in the hands of an unknowable God, or of blind chance, what hope has humanity except in submission? It is no wonder that people holding these conceptions lose hope and neglect efforts to act wisely and to avoid evil.

In fact, these three conceptions or viewpoints are all wrong: everything is a succession of appearances whose source is the accumulation of causes and conditions.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2003 10:28 am  Reply with quote

perhaps, but if that is true, what causes the causes and conditions, and the succession? what began it all? if there is nothing higher to believe about how things happen, what would result?

humans need to have something higher to believe in and view as their guidance, because they themselves are very very pathetic creatures. I hate to break anyones bubble, but theyre frail, weak, and without guns would be wiped of the earth in about 36 minutes (give or take), with half of it being done ourselves.

im not going to argue that that doesnt seem true, because it does make a lot of sense, however one must realize that most people will not accept this because it means that there is nothing but the human condition creating and executing the various paths of existance, which is greatly flawed in many more ways than i choose to account.

In short, one has to wonder which is more important, the actual truth of things, or the things that will prevent the people from going completely insane of their own regard, and wiping themselves out.

And for that matter, are all various beliefs an attempt to contain humanity and keep them sane? one has to wonder this as well.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2003 1:47 pm  Reply with quote

do we really need religion? God, to me, is just a simple way of answering questions that, i think, have answers that we as a species just don't want to know.

'where did the world come from?' 'God.'

'where did we come from?' 'God.'

'why are we here?' 'God.'

i think that it is entirely possible that we are here for some reason, and either we aren't being told, or we aren't telling ourselves. perhaps another creature put us here for their own designs (see The HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and all related books). i also belive that the world never started, it just was. a circle has no starting point, it just is. 'start' is a concept created by our own perceptions of the world around us, and therefore, dosen't mean a damn thing on the whole.
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Cam
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 8:38 am  Reply with quote

The answers are not outside of you. Only inside.
But you have to be willing to let go. Free your mind from physical anchors. (Learn about Memes and NLP) Buddhists call these mental pollutants.

I really can't explain it to you people.
But if you really want the answers you can have them.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 11:51 am  Reply with quote

no, we dont need religion, we dont need anything, in all honesty, however you only need what you believe you need, and that varys from person to person.

Some people say that humans are attracted to what pleases them, and repelled from that which disgusts them. This is true, and indeed it is represented many times over throughout society. however there is one thing that can be seen as a problem.

95% of all scientists (more likely than not) are atheists. they have such great faith in science and knowledge that they are quick to dismiss claims, beliefs, and feats that have occured in religious institutions/situations. However, the same sometimes holds true for religious fanatics. They are so blinded by religion that they dismiss all that has been discovered and realized by scientists.

This relates to two things. First, the machines vs the humans in the matrix. first religion (humans) oppressed the machine (science). the opposite of course occurs later down the road.

Second, the knowledge vs wisdom post that Thoth made. Both sides have great knowledge backing up their sides, however both ALSO have jack shit wisdom in their beliefs. divided, each side has some good points, united they would have an incredible ability of spreading their ideas and beliefs all over.

Its like one man, i forget who, said: no one man has the right to be god, however men have the right to be god over themselves. (note: not trying to be sexist here)

and in response to the question: yes, we do need religion, becase it is a nice contrast to science and knowledge, and it also is a vital need for people to have something to believe in, because at some point, everyone needs a place to run to.
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the "ist"
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2003 3:31 am  Reply with quote

there are many things we dont need that exist because we refuse to let go of them. there are many concepts that we as humans cling to for various reasons.....like the concept of time.....the need to believe in SOMEthing.....the concept of choice.....power....complication...
We, have to complicate things to understand them...how could something ever be without complexities???.....we are strange creatures
limiting oneself to either science or religion can become a rather ignorant way to live.....i choose not to choose..
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the "ist"
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2003 5:34 am  Reply with quote

i was just wondering do you mean to use phrases like "we" and "you people" or did i just take that out of context....general catagorisation makes me illl.....dont think im having a go or something....
and also i was wondering if any of you believe ( on any level) in god...or christianity....the concept behind that is blind faith....its such an interesting belief system....
but arent they all
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thoth87
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2003 8:51 am  Reply with quote

check out my sig,

that's all.
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Guest
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2003 7:49 am  Reply with quote

"i once was blind, but now i see". thereís nothing blind about faith. I am Christian. When i didnít understand it, i couldnít figure out how people could believe in something thatís not really there. when i found out its not about religion, but rather relationship, i decided it was time to stop ignoring God. Only then did i began to see what was really real. talk about causality... the reason we exist is to be loved by God... and to love him back.

the "ist" wrote:
i was just wondering do you mean to use phrases like "we" and "you people" or did i just take that out of context....general catagorisation makes me illl.....dont think im having a go or something....
and also i was wondering if any of you believe ( on any level) in god...or christianity....the concept behind that is blind faith....its such an interesting belief system....
but arent they all
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The Renagade Blue
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 2:08 pm  Reply with quote

im not one to try and tell other people to believe what i do but i do have some opinions of my own...
first, i am a christian, i go to mass every sunday, and im an all around pretty well faithed guy. just wanted to get that out of the way
i dont think that religon and science tangle at all
sience explains things, that's all it does, and religon is for all the the stuff that no one can explain (the begining of time, death, unexplainable events)
but here is annother thing i believe, people are always prone to believe that what they think is right
every one of you thinks that what you believe is what should be believed
now, im sure that every one of you has believed something at one time or annother that was not right, well what's to say that you are right in what you believe right now?
if people are more open to accept other things than what they accecpt at the time when something else is presented to them, than the world would be a very different place
but the fact is the world is NOT that way, and people are the way they are, and there is no changing that
apparently, there is no changing anything
all of you have presented your ideas and backed them up with your name behind it (save the guest), meaning that you want other people to know what you think
now, many of your arguments are very sound and have much evidence to back them up, some have nothing but common sense, i am getting the feeling that very many of you believe that the decicions you make and the things you do are predetermined already, any normal person can see the validity or your arguments
but what if you are wrong
are you to say that there is no way that you are wrong?
you may be right, but if you are not, what will you say then?
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 3:59 pm  Reply with quote

perhaps science and religion do not tangle, but the fact is that science can be proven to exist, god cannot, and neither is relevant to life in general.

do we need to know what makes the sun come up every day? is it relavant to life weather or not we can explain the operations of a syphen? if god exists, do we need to worship him? i mean, the animals get along fine, right?

as for the tangleing...

Science is observing that which is around us, and figuring out how things work in the physical universe. if science is based on that which is physical, then it completely contradicts the existance of a god, which (to this point in time) has not been proven to be phyisical, physicaly manifest it/his/herself, or even exist at all.

Religion is the belief of some higher power, either a god, group of gods, or another vessel of complete control. some religions have basis in fact an physicality (such as druisim, the worship of nature), but most are simply the belief in something higher, and as i see it, a way to explain that which is unexplainable by simple observation. if you dont see how it works, why it works, or who made it, it is an act of god, which completely contradicts science as a whole.

if that isn't tangleing, i don't know what is.
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The Renagade Blue
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 5:19 pm  Reply with quote

But what if you are wrong?
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 5:47 pm  Reply with quote

then you may completely ignore every statement i have made regarding this topic. i am completely ready to disregard it myself, and i hold an open mind for any ideas you may have.
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The Renagade Blue
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 6:54 pm  Reply with quote

i dont have a counter idea for everthing you have said, my idea is that whatever you may believe, whether it be something you believe, or something about belief, there is always a possiblitity that you perception of the subject has cloaked you from what really is the truth
if you truly are ready to drop everything and run, then you are truly enlightened
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 6:58 pm  Reply with quote

well, start the race, then.
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