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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:42 am  Reply with quote

Theres no way for anyone on this forum sans yourself do give physical evidence, hence the name of the site, "there is no spoon a site dedicated to the exploration of illusory reality". Thats what we do here, illusionary reality, what ifs, personal beliefs and constructs, thats what it was made for, and if you dont like that, this is the wrong place for you. Thoth cant give reasons, Transport can't give reasons, Sky cant give reasons, and yet you dont seem to bash them simply because they dont feel like defending the core element of the site as strongly as myself. I'm sorry but i say again, enough with the personal bickering. All we were doing here was giving opinions, i mean thoth doesnt like math, and he said why...thats all...seriously, do you need reasons for opinions other than what you believe? proof of opinion? rather pointless to me in something like that...most opinions rarely make sense to others.
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Realist
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:56 pm  Reply with quote

No, this is the perfect place for me, because before you all manage to convince eachother that you actually have something going with the "Illusionary Reality" idea, you need someone to come in and give you a reality check.

You are formulating your ideas about how the world works so that everything is subservient to human will. You've also found an enviornment where instead of someone saying "Your basic premise is wrong, but good try," people say, "You know, you actually have something going with that idea which makes no sense to anyone outside our circle, and has nothing to base it on besides a whim. But if anyone outside our circle disagrees with you, they are completely addicted to the system and you should ignore them."

So how should I, someone outside of the circle, take that? The rest of the world is throwing up our hands and screaming that your ideas are wrong, and we can prove it, or that we can prove why your ideas work, so you don't need all of the mysticism involved in it. You do to them what you do to me, you say that we're addicted to proof, that we're petty and we need to expand our minds. Transport will preach this exact doctrine to you, and, so far, you've been eating it up because it makes you feel impowered. Wouldn't it be great if the entire universe actually did react to the whims of a few? Then people who sound like they know what they're talking about begin telling you that these ideas are correct. They give you sourses talking about ancient medicne and mysticim. You feel a bit cool, because you now have this power over the world. You take pride in being a believer, and whenever someone comes in and tries to spoil your perfect world with things like evidence or proof, you either tune them out, or, you get angry that they won't agree with you, then tune them out.

This is a very classic story. Needless to say, it will need some modification to fit you perfectly, for example, you were probably a believer before you came on here and met with Transport. Were there any other major points I left out or added? Because if your story isn't significantly different from this, then you are a religous fanatic among religious fanatics. And you are surrounded by your 'peers' who whisper sweet things in your ears and promise that you are correct. In other words, I cannot hope to dissuade you while you are only talking to me through this website.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:08 pm  Reply with quote

actually, You're part of the circle now, bub. and a welcome addition, in my eyes. it does get borring with just the same ol' same ols posting, as it were. and I would like to defend a point: I've stated elsewhere that life, the universe and everything is random, and you can't control that. but I do think you can control how they affect you.

that's all. oh, and by the way, if personal attacks do start happening, I will be forced to moderate on the grounds of flaming. just a little bit of fore-warning to both of you.
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transport22
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:57 pm  Reply with quote

Realist wrote:
No, this is the perfect place for me, because before you all manage to convince eachother that you actually have something going with the "Illusionary Reality" idea, you need someone to come in and give you a reality check.


While I, and maybe all of us (including yourself), could use a reality check now and then....none of us 'need' it. This 'need' resembles the Christian missionaries traveling the world over to 'save' the heathens and their flawed beliefs in reality. Your view is welcome but not 'needed' for any of us. (Also, eachother is not one word.)

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You are formulating your ideas about how the world works so that everything is subservient to human will.


You're basic premise is wrong but good try.

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You've also found an enviornment where instead of someone saying "Your basic premise is wrong, but good try," people say, "You know, you actually have something going with that idea which makes no sense to anyone outside our circle, and has nothing to base it on besides a whim. But if anyone outside our circle disagrees with you, they are completely addicted to the system and you should ignore them."


I don't believe that any of us fit into this catagory nor have we ever said that everything in this world is subservient to human will. If we have, show me and post it. You possess a dramatic flair for argument and stereotype far too often. We're not a bunch of rattlesnake dancing Baptists calling upon the Lord to save our sins from the evil of Satan. We're people just like you, searching for answers, living our small lives, playing with logic and imagination through words, and dreaming of what the future may hold for us, physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, and, for some of us, spiritually. Learn to relax, life is short.

Also, what's this ominious sounding 'circle' you keep talking about? That one came out of left field. If you're talking about Beest and me, that's less a circle and more of a line, a small one at that. And trust me, we're not up late at night, trading strategies, and losing sleep on how to denounce the Realist. If you're talking about a larger 'circle' of people, one that's secret, out to throw down science with their spiritual beliefs, their human will, their invisible proof....well, my friend, I'm afraid you are completely paranoid. We're just dudes chillin' in our homes, surfing the net, and watching the Matrix.

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So how should I, someone outside of the circle, take that? The rest of the world is throwing up our hands and screaming that your ideas are wrong, and we can prove it, or that we can prove why your ideas work, so you don't need all of the mysticism involved in it. You do to them what you do to me, you say that we're addicted to proof, that we're petty and we need to expand our minds.


Realist, YOU are the only one throwing up your hands and screaming that our ideas are wrong. It's faulty and arrogant to believe that you represent and speak for the 'world'. And it's a fact, you are addicted to proof, or your definition of it. Personally, I don't believe you are petty; I respect and honor you as an intelligent being here in this forum. And all of us, not just you, have a need and an obligation to expand our minds in this world.

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Transport will preach this exact doctrine to you, and, so far, you've been eating it up because it makes you feel impowered.


Realist, you preach as much, if not more, than I do. Also, if you wish to address my name and speak of me, answer one of my own posts. You continue to bash my name in other debates where I'm not even present. It's a sucker punch. If you're debating with Beest, stick with what Beest has said and don't pull me into it unless I'm posting as well. Common courtesy.

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Wouldn't it be great if the entire universe actually did react to the whims of a few?


Where did you derive that question from? Did I actually say that? If so, show me and post it.

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Then people who sound like they know what they're talking about begin telling you that these ideas are correct.


It's called finding something in common with another person.

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They give you sourses talking about ancient medicne and mysticim.


What's wrong with directing curious people towards sources that work?

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You feel a bit cool, because you now have this power over the world.


Cool? Power over the world? Huh? What are you talking out?!?!

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You take pride in being a believer, and whenever someone comes in and tries to spoil your perfect world with things like evidence or proof, you either tune them out, or, you get angry that they won't agree with you, then tune them out.


I take pride in my experience, in who I am, and what I've been able to accomplish. You take pride in your non-belief and your experience. What's the difference? Also, have any of us ever tuned you out Realist? And, by and far, YOU are the angriest poster here at TINS, period.

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Were there any other major points I left out or added? Because if your story isn't significantly different from this, then you are a religous fanatic among religious fanatics. And you are surrounded by your 'peers' who whisper sweet things in your ears and promise that you are correct.


There were no major points; the entire post was flawed. And do you really believe that Beest and I are religious fanatics? That we 'whisper sweet things in each others ears' so that we can control the universe? The only time I 'whispher sweet things in each others ears' is with my girlfriend...and I assure you that you are the last thing on my mind at the time.

It sounds to me like you have a deep, deep imprint of fear regarding any form of spirituality....which you immediatley and automatically label as ideas, beliefs, techniques, and ways of living which are religious, false, mythological, primitive, and inferior....all which you are unwilling to honestly try for experiments sake. That's just my opinion though...I may be wrong.

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In other words, I cannot hope to dissuade you while you are only talking to me through this website.


Why not? What irrefutable evidence and proof do you have that needs to be communicated in person? What would your physical presence accomplish? Would you just continue to talk and debate about 'proof and evidence', which you can easily do here, or would you seek to give one somekind of 'experience' of who you are so as to shift their beliefs?

What is Life? = Experiments on 'Reality = Experience = Beliefs, Proof, and Evidence (Subject to Transformation over Time)
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Realist
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:14 am  Reply with quote

What I meant when I said that I cannot hope to persuade beest while on this website is that when he feels that he is in the majority, he will continue to believe the ideas that you've spelled out for him. In a website without a bias either way, the ideas presented will be a better representation of the way people really think.

Oh, Transport, its spelled, 'about.' without the a and the b it means something different.

Before I make a statement, I would like more information on this topic: how do you think your ideas are accepted with people. Mostly I'm wondering if you think that your ideas are actually in the majority.

Transport, you are a zealot, much like myself. We each believe very strongly in our intrepration of reality, and will not be persuaded otherwise without years and years of debate. In the old days, we would have settled our differences with a nice little crusade. I am far more interested in talking to beest than you, because there is actually some chance that he will see through the smoke and mirrors thrown up by the spirituality argument.

I actually need to go somewhere now, but in a little while I'll show you where you and beest made your claims about the universe.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:13 pm  Reply with quote

Allright, i'm sorry, but you really are the angriest person ever to set foot into this forum. damn i wish i had more help refuting these long arguements...hands cramping up (i'm writing this first paragraph after the rest actually) And we really dont have any need for a reality check, after all you're not the first person to come like this, i say again, the Datura debates, if they're still here (they should) were much like these, only at least datura had a little bit more decency than you. We dont need a reality check because we have based our philosphies and beliefs off of the only thing we can, history and everyday life and interactions, thats all. Its all how you choose to deal with things i guess. I dont have to believe what i do, not at all, but nor do i have any reason to bequeath half of my beliefs to oblivion for blind faith in one view.

Yes, we've agreed on that...and yes we cant persuade each other, because i hate what you stand for, and you hate what i stand for, we've been over this many times.

And thats called a bash...cease the anal habberdashery. or perhaps you should remember the "enviornment", no?

Majority? no, we dont, we just post our ideas, and its doubtful to biblical proportions that anyone else feels the exact same way we do. however, there are many people who probably believe in higher powers and the power of human will and progression. Why? think about it, many people would go insane if they couldn't believe in things of this sort, which many times beyone many can give reason behind the inexplicable.

And i've been over this part too. I have as much faith in science as you do, however i dont believe only in following science's lead in regards to everything. There are many things that i feel are beyond scientific classification today, and possibly forever.

I'm mainly responding only to your second post because transport did a good deal of saying what i wanted to.
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transport22
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:26 pm  Reply with quote

Realist, you choose to ignore almost all the questions I posted. If you were wrong, admit it. If you are ignoring them and hoping they'll go away, please answer them.

Quote:
What I meant when I said that I cannot hope to persuade beest while on this website is that when he feels that he is in the majority, he will continue to believe the ideas that you've spelled out for him. In a website without a bias either way, the ideas presented will be a better representation of the way people really think.


Again, all you can truly claim is how YOU think, not what the rest of the world does. If you truly have the evidence and proof that you speak of, there should be no reason why you can't persuade him here. Unless, of course, you don't have the ability to change his mind and this is just a diverson, a way of saying, "if i was just there, i'd learn you right." We are here, on this site. Let us concentrate on playing the game here.

Also, Beest has been here a long time before me. I've never 'spelled out' anything for him. Once again, we are sharing our views on reality, which have their similarities and differences.

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Oh, Transport, its spelled, 'about.' without the a and the b it means something different.


Thanks for reminding me about that small post. So, what was that statement 'about'...the one about being cool and having power over the world? Sounds like an episode of Dragonball Z.

Quote:
Before I make a statement, I would like more information on this topic: how do you think your ideas are accepted with people. Mostly I'm wondering if you think that your ideas are actually in the majority.


These questions are irrelevant. You are using 'smoke and mirrors' to get away from your flawed post.

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I am far more interested in talking to beest than you, because there is actually some chance that he will see through the smoke and mirrors thrown up by the spirituality argument.


You can stop dragging me into the posts in a very simple way: stop bashing my name when I'm not around.

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I actually need to go somewhere now, but in a little while I'll show you where you and beest made your claims about the universe.


It's your move Realist, make it a good one.

"In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves." ~ Siddhartha Buddha


Last edited by transport22 on Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:39 pm  Reply with quote

'Far better to reign in hell than serve in heaven'
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

Thought that'd be interesting to perhaps describe our debates here.
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transport22
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:35 pm  Reply with quote

Cool quote Beest. I like that one.

Realist wrote:
I actually need to go somewhere now, but in a little while I'll show you where you and beest made your claims about the universe.


<patiently waiting as 'a little while' becomes longer than a freakin' week!>
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tayne33
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:13 am  Reply with quote

Realist do you need people to recognize your posts, do you need a majority because to me it looks as thought you are tring to "convet" all who read your post But you seem to me to be seeing other people doing exactly what your doing and it looks like your seeing them as a threat.

Please reply to this truthfully and not hidden behind a defencive dispostio or egoism.


(not trying to attack you might come out that way but it's not intended.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:33 pm  Reply with quote

Well Realist hasn't been back for a while, he, like datura, has passed into great forum debaters who were sick of us coming back and defending our side to the death.

But he even said himself that he was trying to conver me, and so I'd definitely say that that is what he was trying to do. Its what we all are doing here in a sense, but some more and less adamently. Its part of what this forum is, as what i can see.
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transport22
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:47 am  Reply with quote

It all came down to the fact that he was never able say that his views may be wrong. In the end, no matter what our experiences, we just don't know what's really going on. We can make educated guesses that sound right and are logical, but there's never really any certainty, except change and death. It's all a mystery, which frightens some and enlivens others. Personally, I feel completely alive to explore the unknown and adventure beyond the boundaries set for us by external authority. Only then can I know what is real for me and what is real to someone other than me.

It's always challenging and humbling to have your 'known reality' crash to the ground and to realize that all it really represented was a hundred, or perhaps a thousand, different little assumptions, ideas, and beliefs that accumulated through the years...all of which you discover no longer add up as truth. And then there's the ascent, when one merges with that old maya/illusion, frees up its energy from the constraints and shackles of the past, and transcends to a fresh perspective and greater awareness of self.

In Kundalini Yoga with have a wonderful mantra that we meditate and chant upon.

~ Wahe Guru ~ meaning: Wow! Awesome! Amazing! The indescribable, transformational experience of ecstasy and bliss felt and known as one transports from the darkness into the light! ~ Wahe Guru ~
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mu shin
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:23 pm  Reply with quote

But he even said himself that he was trying to conver me, and so I'd definitely say that that is what he was trying to do. Its what we all are doing here in a sense, but some more and less adamently. Its part of what this forum is, as what i can see.[/quote]


According to Zen philosophy, one cannot lead another to enlightenment, one can only point the way. Perhaps Realist instinctively realized this and gave up trying to convert. Or, perhaps one of you pointed him a-way. :-)

inch time foot gem
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transport22
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:43 pm  Reply with quote

Welcome Mu Shin.

Your observation is keen and accurate except for one detail; Realist wasn't trying to convert anybody towards enlightenment. His primary thrust was to 'persuade' others to buy into or agree with his system of beliefs, an amalgamation of skepticism, materialism, and orthodox science.

From his point of view enlightenment was impossible, beyond the world's ability to prove as Truth through scientific testing and modern technology.
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mu shin
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:53 pm  Reply with quote

Thanks.

Just my opinion, but I think he was trying to convert.
Persuading others to buy into, or agree with, ones own system of beliefs is an attempt to convert, though not necessarily in the religious connotation of conversion. From dictionary.com...
Convert:
v. 3. To persuade or induce to adopt a particular religion, faith, or belief: convert pagans to Christianity; was converted to pacifism by the war.

And it appears to me from Realists writings in this forum that he may believe only in the realistic/intellectual type of enlightenment that comes from the proofs and evidence provided by the application of the scientific method, rather than the mystic/spiritual type of enlightenment that is attained thru meditation and reflection. Some different definitions of enlightenment, also from dictionary.com...
Enlightenment:
n 1: education that results in understanding and the spread of knowledge [ant: unenlightenment] 2: (Hinduism and Buddhism) the beatitude that transcends the cycle of reincarnation; characterized by the extinction of desire and suffering and individual consciousness [syn: Nirvana] 3: a movement in the 18th century that advocated the use of reason in the reappraisal of accepted ideas and social institutions [syn: Enlightenment, Age of Reason]
Buddhism & Hinduism. A blessed state in which the individual transcends desire and suffering and attains Nirvana.

That being said, it wouldn't hurt him to open his mind. Sooner or later, he will encounter that which cannot yet be explained by science or reason, and in an attempt to understand or grasp it anyway, he may attain a different form of enlightenment.


"Knowing others is wisdom. Knowing yourself is enlightenment" -Lao Tzu


inch time foot gem
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