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thoth87
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:29 pm  Reply with quote

before I start, I'd like to start by saying NO ARGUEMENTS BASED ON "it's all the way you look at things"! thankee.

Allright. I know now why I hate math. and when I say HATE, I mean HATE. Math serves no purpose in the real world. yes, in the 'real world' with money and finance... a purely ficticious, man-made world which is unnecisary. but in the real world, 2 has no meaning. there is no 2. Numbers can not possibly encompass all of existance. Sure, it can say there's so and so ammount of people or trees or whatnot, but how is it to possibly record our endless differences? it can't cope with uniqueness. even in something very number-based such as war, numbers can determine probabilty based on numbers of weapons, men, forts and so on, but it has no way of recording differences in tactics, or differences in training, or HOW weapons are made, or faults in any of these things. minor technicalities and all.

in short, numbers are only real, because so many minds make them real. they are purely a human creation, and are flawed. and should be dispensed with. blargh.

that's all.

<<Rant: ENDED>>
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transport22
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:44 am  Reply with quote

Yes, but you can say the same thing about words; everything being a language we've created for a specific purpose. You may not be inclined to use numbers in your day-to-day activities, but they're not worthless. Saying this, one implies that science is worthless, technology is worthless, the human imagination is worthless. You couldn't have enjoyed the Matrix without the language of numbers. And, if and when we make contact with another intelligence in the universe, it'll be through streams of data and information. Why? Because communication is based upon the meaning of sounds and vibrations; the Universe constantly vibrates as does everything in it. And numbers, much more so than words, translates many abstract and valuable universal vibrations and concepts into a language that spans worlds. Without numbers there is no space travel, no global~galactic communication, no understanding of the objects in space and our relation to them.

Numbers also exist as a metaphoric language....which is why I'm so into numerology.

0~the void, the formless, space, silence, the cosmic womb, the transcendent reality beyond all concepts, paradox
1~the I am principle of self-realization, unity, form, being
2~the field of time, emergence, opposites, duality, discernment, polarity
3~the creative principle, destruction, change, movement, energy
4~order, balance, stability, neutrality, stagnation, rigidity, service
5~the physical vehicle, the teacher, the guru, the transport, the carrier of light, information, wisdom, knowledge
6~imagination, vision, community, protection, sense of sacred, intuition
7~intelligence, intellect, technology, inventions, connection, communion, vibration of nature
8~personal power, the infinite 00, the will, intention, projection, manifestion, dominance
9~mastery, subtlety, femininity, completion, death, rebirth, descent

What we HATE we should embrace to understand the challenge it poses for us. And if you suck at math, not saying that you do, that's no reason to condemn it as worthless for the rest of humanity.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:30 pm  Reply with quote

I don't hate it because I suck at it... I've actually got somewhat of a knack for some of it, but I must disagree. words, although created by us as well as numbers, can be used to actually describe something in all of it's glory, rather than just numericaly. "10, 24 degrees, straight line ". "there were ten powerful-looking, armor-clad warriors marching up a grassy hill in a single-file line, banners waving gloriously in the wind and swords shimmering in the sunlight."

see what I mean?
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transport22
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:16 am  Reply with quote

I do understand, and I prefer words myself over numbers for just that reason. But words themselves cannot capture a moment 'in all it's glory', just a small fragment of the experience. But I agree, much more so than numbers can. And numbers can describe the behavior of matter, space, time, and energy better than words can. Words being communication between two or more people, and numbers being communication between a person and a science/technology/theory.

But, just wondering, why do you HATE numbers for that?
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thoth87
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:20 am  Reply with quote

I always have. too concrete. to exact. 2 and 2 is FIVE DAMMIT!
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:53 am  Reply with quote

Well imma agree with transport on this one, your description works fine, but you still used numbers in it!

Quote:
there were ten powerful-looking, armor-clad warriors marching up a grassy hill in a single-file line, banners waving gloriously in the wind and swords shimmering in the sunlight."


So a combo of em is really required to convey the best descriptions possible. Compromise, compromise! never gets old!
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:28 pm  Reply with quote

right, caught me on a technicality...

there WAS A GROUP OF powerful-looking, armor-clad warriors marching up a grassy hill in a single-file line, banners waving gloriously in the wind and swords shimmering in the sunlight."
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:50 pm  Reply with quote

However, the numerical value does put a sense of awe in the statement when used correctly.

for instance: "there was a group of 12 powerful-looking, armor-clad warriors marching up a grassy hill in a single-file line, banners waving gloriously in the wind and swords shimmering in the sunlight."

This statement shows a rather small group of a dozen elite fighters making their way towards what might be a battle or might be a return from one.

Or on the flip side: there was a group of 700 powerful-looking, armor-clad warriors marching up a grassy hill in a single-file line, banners waving gloriously in the wind and swords shimmering in the sunlight."

This one shows a whole assload of soldiers a-marching away towards someone whos probably going to be completely wiped out in the near future! Your description does leave room to the imagination, but generally the term "group" is ambiguously associated with small groups, but it can be used either way. I just like the more specific terminology, gives for a much better mental image, depending on what you're trying to depict.
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Realist
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:27 am  Reply with quote

Math has no use is the real world!? You, my friend, need some prespective.

Your computer that you're typing on is nothing but an extremely efficent calculator. The room you're sitting in was created using math to make sure that it was made right. The electricity you use is availiable because someone took the time to make sure that the power lines going towards your house were long enough to make it. Any books you may have are the size that the are so that they can fit on shelves. Any furniture you have needed math to be created. Any map you ever use was created with proportions.

Need I go on? Math is our best way of describing the world around us. It may not be the most glamorous, for example, the knights marching up the hill in all their glory sounds much cooler, but using math you could get exactly where they are, exactly where they're going, exactly how fast they're moving, and any number of such information. It might be prettier to tell an artillery officer 'just shoot those bunker things over there.' But what he really wants to know is 'raise your gun to 46 degrees and fire, the arc will land on the bunkers.

Math is pointless, ha. There has never been a more important invention in the history of the human race.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:02 pm  Reply with quote

...what about civilization...that itself didnt rely on math...and perhaps you didnt hear his rationale clearly, he's saying that on the whole, the majority of the math we are taught in schools is worthless and unapplicable in the real world unless going into an extensive research or development position in the field of that specialty. Yes they are important for those who choose to dedicate their lives. The ones who made computers made it their lives...then again a good portion of their work was experimenting with materials on how to make it. And what does it have to do with perspective? he hates it, big deal. He says he prefers other ways of denotation. Of course then again you seem to enjoy automatically calling him ignorant and clueless when he's just stating a personal opinion...so great job there...and since you yourself seem to believe in this system so strongly, great. But hes not wrong, and neither are you, so stop being an ass and adressing thoth as such, you both have your opinions and i respect that, but seriously dont be such an anally retentive ass about it...
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:29 am  Reply with quote

Thank ye beest. and I'd like to point out a few things to you Realist.

Firstly, I think realism is a load of bullshit. of course, that really doesn't matter on the whole, as you and I are entitled to our own oppinions.

Secondly, please don't EVER tell me I need perspective on math. I've been living in this perspective for years, that math is all-important and relevant and such. I've got all I need. I've compared and contrasted. I like mine better.

Thirdly, I'm going to pick apart your statement. "Your computer that you're typing on is nothing but an extremely efficent calculator." but I don't need it. "The room you're sitting in was created using math to make sure that it was made right." but an unmeasured shelter in the middle of the forest will work just as well. "The electricity you use is availiable because someone took the time to make sure that the power lines going towards your house were long enough to make it." or, they could have just run the line until they had enough, and cut. "Any books you may have are the size that the are so that they can fit on shelves." I have quite a few books that don't fit on my shelves... seriously. "Any furniture you have needed math to be created." WRONG! why just the other day I built a chair by eyeing out log-lengths and lashing it together. "Any map you ever use was created with proportions." I make alot of my own maps. none of them are scaled or in proportion to each other at all. and yes I use them.

therefore...

as me and beest would say...

TWO, SIX, EIGHT, RIPOSTE, COUNTER, LUNGE!

-Fencing-
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:35 pm  Reply with quote

Indeed, ive done most of the things above myself. physical examples do help the arguement along, and that having been said, i do believe that the only thing that can be said now is "pwn". (sorry ive been on battle.net for a few hours recently)
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Realist
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:34 pm  Reply with quote

But the things you've made weren't made as well as they could be in a mathmatically precise factory. Sure you don't need this computer. Just as you don't need your room, or the excellent food you're getting, or most other things we have in our modern society. Humans did manage to scratch out a living in caves hunting mammoth. But you've never really lived as such, and are taking the things created using math around you for granted.

I was so aggravated because you weren't making a personal opinion statement. You were making claims about the way the world works. For example:

Quote:
Math serves no purpose in the real world.


Quote:
but in the real world, 2 has no meaning. there is no 2.


These are not opinions, these are claims. And I have no issues with saying that incorrect facts are wrong.

The list of things I provided was to give you a little thought about the things you use in your 'real world.' And I thought you where actually whining about math being difficult when you started making statements like math should be dispenced with, without thinking about all that math has given you. And what the hell does it mean to say that there is no two?? Two is the agreed upon term to discribe a pair of things. More than one and less than three. If there is no such thing as two, and I asked you how many frogs were in a pond, and there were only two of them there, how would you discribe it? No, numbers cannot discribe everything about a situation. Then again, nothing can discribe everything about a situation. Even saying about the glorious knights didn't tell us everything. Did they have beards? What kind of armor? What kind of swords? Were they dirty? Were they tired?

You may say you would like a world without math better. But I don't believe you. And if you spend some time actually thinking about how basically everything you currently have in your nice cozy modern life relies on math, I don't think you'll say it at all.

You may call me an anally retentive ass, but think before you speak. Civilation relies on math so much I think there is nothing more important in keeping society together. And beest, stop whining and counter my arguments, or shut up. You do nothing but complain that I'm being mean and should respect the opinions of others. But you cannot support your opinions. You cannot give good reasons for why you believe them besides "I just do," Or "I've experienced it personally, and there's no way for you to do it." It is the very hight of arrogance to believe that something is true simply because you and say it's so. So check your assumptions. Personal attacks just show that you have nothing to say, so actually debate goddammit!
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thoth87
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:47 pm  Reply with quote

Well, allright. this post was really to start a discussion more than anything. and although I wish the world i described did exist, it doesn't.
and as for you getting all rilled up about this topic being a claim, then I'm sorry you percieved it as such. It really was meant to be an oppinion statement (thought the bit about RANT: ENDED would give it away...). if I came off as arrogant, I didn't mean to, and if you'd prefer, I'll edit it for you. not the original post, but add another post altering it, if that makes sense...

and you're right, none of things I have could be made as well by hand as in a mathimatically correct factory, I'll give you that. but coming down to it, I don't mind.

the whole bit about the 'there is not two' deal, was to show that on a very base hunter-killer level, the hunter recognizes "antelope over there" and "Antelope over there", but not "two antelope". it recognizes the possible targets, not that there's a pair of them.

and I'm not sure about the last part of your last paragraph, where it says 'Beest'... is that adderessed in any way to me as well? 'cause I don't wanna touch it if it's not.
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Realist
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:15 pm  Reply with quote

But the hunter gatherer does take into account the number of targets. For example, he may realise that while mammoth meat is tasty, he can't attack a herd of them or he will be summarily trampled. But my may realise that two of them are a viable target, and will probably reconise when one is alone. He doesn't go into anything like y=mx+b, but basic number skills are there.

The rant wasn't towards you. Nightbeest and I have been having a little . . . disagreement.
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