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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:00 pm  Reply with quote

For the same reason that you continue to post and try unsuccessfully to disprove mine. My beliefs cannot be either proven or disproven, whereas yours an entirely secular and humanistic, and entirely based in the scientific practice. And even so you will secede that science has only gone so far in many operations, and the the patients WILL alone has pulled them through. And you blindly denounce religion as a bad and awful thing, seemingly without pondering for a minute what good intentions it might have been founded for.

And saying things in a cordial way is just a rule that everyone else who posts here practices, and it makes things more pleasing. I wont lie, i find a good portion of your posts exceedingly arrogant and closed minded, then again anyone who gets something directed with a basic statement of "you're wrong, you dumbass, here's why" will justify themselves, much like you do after each time i post. And you should ask yourself the same question, no? I post here for my reasons, you for yours, and i dont much care about your reasons. After all, we backyard philosophers only meet here to exchange ideas, much like the ancient Greco-Roman forums of ages past.
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Realist
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:28 am  Reply with quote

If your ideas cannot be proven or disproven, then you do nothing but show your own closed mindedness, because you've completely closed your mind off to any of the arguments I've been giving. Many times a paitent's will has been the only thing to pull them though, which is a part of the mind-body relationship scientists have been studying. However, we can examine why those things happen and how they do, and while we may not understand it all, we can see that it is elements of the person's brain doing the work, not their spirit.

Oh, I believe that religion has had many good intentions. In fact, they've even had some stunning successes. However, the reasons for which they were founded are no longer required in todays society. We have a new set of words for their ideals, and it's called common decency. I am so anti-religous because while I can see the good they've done in the world, I can also see where they've stunted human development for their own reasons.

Ah, but I AM arrogant, and moderately closed minded, at least of many of the ideas you've been saying, but if there's no way I can prove or disprove your ideas, then why should I allow anything you say to change my mind? I also don't believe you when you say that I'm closed minded, because if at any point you can give me hard scientific evidence of your ideas, then I will incorperate it into how I view reality. You have already said that there is no way for me to disprove your ideas. Who's closed minded?

We meet here to exchange ideas, but we also have to explain why we think those ideas are correct, otherwise the 'you're wrong, dumbass' statement is absouletely correct.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:45 pm  Reply with quote

My ideas cannot be proven or disproven and as such are flexible to biblical proportions, since no proof that you require is needed to tweak them, requiring proof vastly limits belief systems, so im not sure how my minds completley closed off, read my arguements with transport after he just showed up, we both bequeathed and incorporated ideas into each others philosophy.

Survival is the basic instinct of every thing on the planet is survival. Its what's done, and religion does do about as much bad as it does good, however, even in history, it has only done bad when it was nearing extinction. Obviously this helps your arguement, but it bears mentioning nontheless.

And as i've said a hundred times over, the stories and their morals that they're meant to teach will always hold merit because they are ones that teach common decency in the easiest way possible, stories.

Oh, who's closed minded? you just admited it. Your beliefs hold merit, and i do respect them and use them myself, however i do not put blind faith into either one of the belief systems, either physical or metaphysical. Your blind devotion and requirement of proof also just shows your own closed mindedness again, you admitted it! My point is, you dont have to, as a matter of fact i couldnt care less what you do, but the beliefs that you've chosed to live by will wind up causing a lot of internal pain for you down the road, i guaruntee you that, because i used to live by exclusively physically validated things as well.
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Realist
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:53 pm  Reply with quote

Certian ideas cannot be maintained, even if they are bent. Some just have to be broken, for example, the idea that the world was flat.

When it is nearing extinction everything behaves badly; thashing out in all directions blindly. So the fact that a dying religion behaves as badly as a dying government is only minorly helpful to either side.

As I've said for the hundredth time, they should only ever be taught as stories, but many are taught as history.

I am closed minded, but i try to be openminded. Even when I'm trying, there are certian things I have pretty much completely closed my mind off to. For example, until you capture the Loch Ness monster and let me see it in a tank, I wont believe it exists.

Seeing blind devotion to proof is a odd way of seeing it. Requreing proof of ideas is showing that you do have an open mind, but not so open that you believe everything you're told. My biggest, ultimate, and most fundimental disagreement with you and Transport is that I see both of you believing things that you cannot prove are true. I don't understand why anyone would believe something which cannot be proven to be a fact. Can you prove that there is a human spirit? We can prove that there are chemical reactions, but you say that there is another kind of energy which we have never observed which you KNOW exists. HOW do you know? Give me evidence that you are correct and I'll be the first person to convert!

Personal experiences are rather like witness testimony in court. They matter, but without DNA evidence, ballistics data or records, it is your word against mine. Find me your version of DNA evidence, and prove me wrong. But also think about the case you're making, and why you believe what you believe. Because if you notice that you have no reason to believe something that you do, you should look long and hard at why you believe it.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:25 pm  Reply with quote

Oh really? well the world is flat, however its wrapped around a spheical plane. see? its all about descriptive terms.

So you dont believe in creatures that have intelligence far greater than humans or something along the lines of relative space time dialations randomly transporting matter (Such as a loch-ness-esque dinosaur) into other areas and back? do you happen to have a scientific instrument to measure something like this? no? oh, look at that my points made, even using a theory in scientific terms. My point is, why do you have to see something to know it exists? do you believe in other dimensions? do you believe in ghosts? do you believe in bigfoot? Yetis? mermaids? vampires? demons? angels? why do you not believe in the unbelievable? No harm comes of it to a degree, the same as is with science, there is no harm in trusting it to a certain degree.

*sigh again* the entire point you're making is "i'm so insecure i need proof" or thats how i see it. you'll probably respond with "well i see it as you being so insecure that you abhor proof" or something along those lines, but allow me to finish. Why can you not believe? all that you have to do is trust, is that so hard? is it such a strain? all that you have to do is trust and truly believe, and things unseed and unheard of will listen. And the power of will will make it for you, even if nobody else believes it. I believe in things that cannot be seen, heard, or touched, and as such they exist for me, and the same method works for transport. All you have to do is trust yourself and then you can do it, but if you rely on proofs of others exclusively, then its impossible for you to understand, much less do. i'm sorry, but you'd have to, and i know how hard it would be to change from your current views.

Once again, you overlook a loophole, if there is no dna evidence and at least two witnesses who say the same thing, and there is no reazson to doubt otherwise, then the person will be judged as such from the testimonies. besides you are aware of how people will virtually never leave dna evidence of any kind nowadays because of just that?

And i believe it because i choose to believe it, because to me it makes sense, and to me it solves some kind of personal truth or satisfaction, thats what beliefs are, thats what their core essence is, its not a difficult concept at all.
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Realist
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:57 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
So you dont believe in creatures that have intelligence far greater than humans or something along the lines of relative space time dialations randomly transporting matter (Such as a loch-ness-esque dinosaur) into other areas and back? do you happen to have a scientific instrument to measure something like this?


Do you have one to show me? Can you show me "relative space time dialations randomly transporting matter"? No? Then they don't exist.

You are far too trusting in terms of ideas. If someone tells you something is true, that doesn't mean that it is, and until they can show you evidence that it is true, then it is either false or a hypothisis. The harm that can come from it is basing imporant desisions on false information. I don't believe in it because WHY would I believe in something that makes no sense and I cannot be shown in true??

No, but I'll respond with you have a very loose grip on what is real, what could be real, and what is bullshit. It's just a general principal that I don't trust liars, whether they believe what they're saying or not. Again, I point you to the example of someone beginning to post on this website claiming that his chair is the center of the spiritual universe, but with nothing to support his claims. Do you believe what every wacko on the street is yelling? Or do you look at everything with a healthy dose of skeptisim?

So what do I do, pick something I've though up and begin believing in it, even though even I can't prove that I'm correct?

I don't rely on other's proofs exclusively, and when a scientist has a theory I don't agree with I don't believe them. But I can't prove to myself that you have anything but ideas here, and you haven't either.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep from leaving DNA evidence at a crime scene? You're constandly shedding skin and hair, and that is enough to get the DNA match. The newest place to look for DNA evicence on rape victims is under their fingernails, on the assumption they may have clawed at their attacker. But we're getting off topic. Even if you have two witnesses, if they both testify to something that makes no sense and you have no other evidence for they lose credibility.

Why does it make sense to you? Because you've seen it's effects? Because you've harnessed it? Are you sure you were right? How are you sure?

This is going to sound terribly insulting, but I can't think of any better ways to put it. A lot of this sounds like a little kid claiming they have an invisible friend. It either entails a early onset skitsophrenia, or they have such an active imagination that they cannot tell the difference between what's real and what isn't.
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transport22
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:29 am  Reply with quote

Realist wrote:
My biggest, ultimate, and most fundimental disagreement with you and Transport is that I see both of you believing things that you cannot prove are true.


Proof is the child that is birthed from its mother, direct experience. You can't have proof in science without the experience of directly testing a theory physically. Unless itís an observational science like cosmology or astronomy, then itís based upon 'probable proof', which is another way of saying 'we really don't know' or 'its the best we've got'. All of science is based upon this premise, the uncertainty principle. Many orthodox scientist claim that the laws of physics, discovered in the previous few hundred years, have existed, unchanged, for the entire length of the Universe's life, 15+ billion years since the big bang, and behave the same everywhere throughout the vastness of space, time, and dark void beyond. They've based everything on laws that are supposedly forever fixed, static, unchanging, universal, and not subject to the thrust and transformation of evolution. In essence, everything in the universe evolves and changes except the very foundation from which it arises. Paradox or just contradiction? Sounds like a scientific trust and faith in a mathematical 'God', but it's really just another and more complex way of saying that the world is flat. Real proof and the quest for personal truth is not based upon data, ideas, or theories from another's experience of directly testing reality. You have to test it yourself for your objections to be valid and to truly 'know' what you're talking about. Once again, here's a path to spiritual proof, which will open your life to possibilites and mysteries beyond your wildest imaginings.

Transport22 wrote:
Technology of the Ancients: the practical and effective techniques of yoga, creative visualization, fasting & purification, ritual & ceremony, journaling, intention, prayer, meditation, pranayama, entheogens, focus, discipline, concentration, tantric practices~sacred sexuality, organic edibles from an unpolluted food source, rhythmic drumming, dance, artistic expression, travel and exposure to indigenous cultures, mantra, cyclical living, and compassionate communication with the living library of Earth.

Realist Test: Fast for 3 days and 3 nights on pure vegetable and fruit juices and journal your experiences. Create and work with an intention that means something deeply to you. Have a shamanic experience with a plant medicine and allow it to guide you and teach you about healing and wholeness. Then begin to meditate and do yoga (especially Kundalini Yoga) for the next month at least twice a week. During that time read: "Last Hours of the Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann, "Messages from Water" by Emoto, "Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot, and "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn...in that order for a rational, scientific, and spiritual view of reality. Have gratitude for your friends and family, the things you own, the food you eat and the water you drink. Spend one weekend out in nature in silence without any agendas; exploring the land, the insects, the plants, the sunsets, the stars, the elements, and your relationship to it all.


Proof and evidence is found in validating ideas and theories by taking some form of initiative towards testing them. Newton, Darwin, and Einstein didn't just throw around their ideas; they tested them. You haven't made any attempt to prove or dis-prove my test. Nor have you given me a 'direct & personal' test of your own. You simply repeat the findings and experiences of others. No matter how the retort is sugarcoated, any resistance to the Realist test is based upon the fear of change, fear of the unknown, and fear of the true humility that comes when our 'givens' turn out to be illusions.

Quote:
Do you have one to show me? Can you show me "relative space time dialations randomly transporting matter"? No? Then they don't exist.


Can you show Beest that a black hole exists? Even if you have mathematical evidence, do you have any proof you can show him? Do you feel emotions or daydream? Do you love your family or your friends? Does your mind exist separate from the information and data that you constantly communicate? According to you, if it can't be proven in a laboratory, it doesn't exist. Do your dreams, emotions, your love relationships, your mind, or black holes exist or not? If you say yes, show me proof.

Quote:
You are far too trusting in terms of ideas. If someone tells you something is true, that doesn't mean that it is, and until they can show you evidence that it is true, then it is either false or a hypothisis.


Wouldn't a non-judgmental attitude until proven otherwise be a more effective attitude than automatically believing it to be false or theory? It's the difference between intelligent, intuitive discernment vs. automatic skepticism.

Quote:
The harm that can come from it is basing imporant desisions on false information


That's why a true seeker of truth will experiment with the full range of options that life, and reality on Earth, possess. How else can you claim something to be false if you haven't tried it out? It's like saying you HATE the taste of spinach and always have, except you've gone your whole life without actually trying it. Same principle, bigger stakes.

Quote:
This is going to sound terribly insulting, but I can't think of any better ways to put it. A lot of this sounds like a little kid claiming they have an invisible friend. It either entails a early onset skitsophrenia, or they have such an active imagination that they cannot tell the difference between what's real and what isn't.


Riddle me this Realist, what's really real?
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Realist
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:42 pm  Reply with quote

Exactly, it IS the best we've got. Of all the avaliable evidence this is the truth as near as we can tell. I don't know where you draw your ideas from, but what beest basically said, and what really set me off, is "I just made it up, it makes sense to me, so it must be real.

So under what circumstances are the scientific laws changed? As near as we can tell, these laws are always true and have always been true. If change can be demonstrated, it would be a breakthrough in the scientific community.

Niether paridox or contridiction. Some things we can see change. Others we've never seen change, and have no reason to believe have ever changed. Does that prove they've never changed or will never? No. But it's the truth as near as we know it.

You're completely misunderstanding what scientists do. Scientists are trying to explain the universe. They have a number of ways they attempt to do so. If you can prove a scientific idea wrong, the beliefs change.

I can't test many of these things for myself. Neither, may I add, can anyone else but scientists using very advanced equipment or extremely complicated math. Before you doubt what they find, you have to first ask, why would they lie?

I haven't taken your test for one reason. I find some of your practices unacceptable. For example, the shamanistic herbs, otherwise known as hallusonegens.

I can show him the math saything that it is more probable than not that they exist. Can he show me anything besides his own ideas supporting these?

I can also show you the chemical reactions that appear in brain and body when certian emotions are expirenced, and I can show you the parts of the brain which experience an increase in electrical activity and blood flow when the above occur. Can you show me that anything other than these happen?

People, including myself, are going to act on their first judgement of a new idea until given reason to do otherwise.

Because I can read if someone else tried it out, and I believe their results. The world is too vast to try everything our for yourself, so you have to find some sourses you trust to get a larger picture of the world. For example, the books you keep saying I need to read. Some of the ideas discussed in there were probably incorperated into your perception of reality. So they're giving you their own experiences that you yourself didn't try, but you accept because their reasoning and results make sense.

What's real is what we can prove is real. What may be real is something that is likely, but we can't prove, and what is fake is either something with pretty much nothing supporting it, or can be proven false.

There is no test I could give you that has any chance of changing your ideas, because you accept ideas on such flimsy evidence there's nothing more I can do to disprove it. But they are accepted anyway.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:19 pm  Reply with quote

Okay, threads dead. enough. you think we're full of it, and you think we're full of it. seriously, now its just, "i know you are but what am i". Transport, just give up, we cant make him change, and realist, give up, you cant ever make us need to present proof. Thats the way all of our arguements turn out on this topic, no matter how many words you put into bashing each other.
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Realist
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:34 pm  Reply with quote

"The irresistable force meets the immovable object"
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thoth87
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:23 pm  Reply with quote

Revival!

answering a question offered earlier in this thread. I come here every day not to prove what I think, or to argue or dispute, but to throw out ideas into this live-wire thinktank we have going on here so they can be picked apart by the rabid wolves that the populace of TINS turns out to be so readily, Beest in particular. once I try to hold my own, (failing or succeding) I look back, see (firstly) how the ideas have changed, and (secondly) re-evaluate the worth of these thoughts and ideas, and then incorporate them into my views.

I suppose it's moderately comparable to an experiment.

hehehe...
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transport22
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:13 am  Reply with quote

My summation:

Both the material & spiritual belief systems are fundamentally built upon a foundation of uncertainty, trust, faith, and mystery.

Evidence does not imply proof.

Proof is subjective, it can be credited or dis-credited by the power of the mind.

Personal proof is the realization of our life experience based upon reoccuring patterns, cycles, and rhythms. It must be constantly tested and re-affirmed.

The mind creates the real, which is always relative and open to interpretation.

The mind is a collection of unconscious, subconscious, and conscious beliefs which creates the parameters of our experience and habitually and energetically manifest our past into our present.

Our mind, and everything it knows, is only a reflection of reality.

The mind, reflecting reality, can be transcended to experience reality directly.

Techniques & technologies exist which dissolve the mind and free one from the matrix of duality, suffering, and separation.
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Realist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:50 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
Both the material & spiritual belief systems are fundamentally built upon a foundation of uncertainty, trust, faith, and mystery.


I agree with all but faith.

Quote:
Evidence does not imply proof.


Yes, it does.

Quote:
Proof is subjective, it can be credited or dis-credited by the power of the mind.


Proof is humans saying, "We have strong reasons to believe this is the case" It can be discredited, but more is needed than belief.

Quote:
Personal proof is the realization of our life experience based upon reoccuring patterns, cycles, and rhythms. It must be constantly tested and re-affirmed.


Yes, but you can't base something as large as the universe purely on what you have experienced in your limited range and short lifespan.

Quote:
The mind creates the real, which is always relative and open to interpretation.


The mind interpreates the real. What is real does not change.

Quote:
The mind is a collection of unconscious, subconscious, and conscious beliefs which creates the parameters of our experience and habitually and energetically manifest our past into our present.


I don't understand what it means to energetically manifest, but this sounds about right.

Quote:
Our mind, and everything it knows, is only a reflection of reality.


What we know is a very small fraction of all that is real, rather than a reflection.

Quote:
The mind, reflecting reality, can be transcended to experience reality directly.


The mind is always experiencing reality directly. But, we are currently limited to our tiny little planet, and some mathimatical probabilities about the rest of the universe. The rest of everything that is real is currently unavailiable.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:02 am  Reply with quote

If the unstopable me the unmovable, the unstopable would keep moving, but advance no further since the unmovable was in the way. Thats an easy to solve paradox. anyways

...why do you agree with all but faith? faith is another word for trust, even in the dictionary defintion, you do realize that it was just a reiteration of everything right? (trust, faith/uncertainty, mystery)

No, i could cast an alien head from formerly living tissue and mess around with it enough to make it appear as though it was the real thing, or use genetic engineering to make one, and if i presented it as evidence would it be proof then? my point is that evidence is subjective as well, so you're wrong about saying "yes it is" for certain. And belief in a credible source is the entire driving force behind evidence in court, is it not? that belief is a key element.

And yes, thats all you can base it on, because thats all you have, even the teachings of the past are limited to what you choose to learn, so thats it, simple and plain.

No, the mind creates the real, and the interpretation is another part of it, why do you think the africans thought the europeans were gods when they showed up with maxim guns? the mind created it through experimentation, and the interpretation created something else, its a part of both. Science itself, your religion, as i can safely call it now i think, is based entire on the mind creating new real, so our way is simply a belief way. just putting that in perspective and pointing out a flaw.

Aright you have a major add portion of your brain in the metaphysical area. simply put what was said is: your past experiences make your present and future by influencing your choices.

Aright, realist, i'm sorry but you just seem to kill the majesty of EVERY spiritual type arguement or point made, just...either get some ability of insight into them or stop. the point made HERE is yet simple again: the mind can reflect reality and change it and warp it to individual perception and one can transcend the barrier and make this the reality, or at least thats how it seems. And as such we are not limited to this planet, use the imagination, thats all there is to it.
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Realist
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:50 am  Reply with quote

You missed the point of the paridox, which is asking which would win. If the irrestable was halted by the unmoveable, it's not that irrestable.

Faith has the connatation of meaning trust without reasons why. Trust itself can be built up after years of questioning until eventually the truster realises the trustee is generally right. Faith is trusting blindly.

Ummm, Beest? I don't think you've been following the scientific advances in genetic manipulation, because we can't even get most clones to turn out right, much less manipulate cells so that they stopped what they were doing and began forming a competely new thing. You could make a alien head out of a piece of meat, maybe, but the illusion would be over as soon as we did a DNA test (Which we are pretty good at) and realised that it was made of beef or some such thing.

The word was implies proof. When you have evidence of something it means that there could be something to that theory. When you have proof it means that the amount of evidence for the theory is immense and outweighs the doubt.

I said that before, that in order to understand as much of the universe as possible in your life you need to place your trust in sources who tell you what they know about the universe. But that doesn't mean to blindly have faith in what they say. You need to look at what is presented and see if the idea makes sense to you and if they seem to have evidence for their claims.

Yes, the africians did believe that the british were gods. But, they weren't. So how does it help your argument to list yet another time where people's beliefs had no effect on the real world . . .?

If you want to call it my religion, then fine, but it is inherently different from all religions, including yours, that I don't accept ideas on pure faith. That means that I have a much easier time sorting out what are crazy ideas humans have invented and what we're pretty sure is real. I also note that you still haven't responded to your question about the preacher and his bookcase being the center of the spiritual universe, and if you would dismiss him as a nut, or you would incorperate his ideas into a part of your belief system.

Quote:
Aright you have a major add portion of your brain in the metaphysical area. simply put what was said is: your past experiences make your present and future by influencing your choices.


Absouletely.

Actually, you've just stated my goal perfectly.

Why should I stop? Is it too painful for me to make you think about your assumptions? If I've only been here for about 40 posts and already you're asking me to stop, without rebutting my arguments, you must not have been too sure about your ideas in the first place.

What does it mean to have your mind reflecting reality? Your mind does warp reality to individual perception, but I can list you dozens of cases where what people believed had no effect on reality. AH, there's the key phrase! "or that's how it seems" It seems to you that you are trancending into reality, but infact you're delusioning yourself and getting further from what's real. And as such we are still limited to this planet, at least those of us who've never had the chance to go into space, and while my imagination has given me FTL drives, laser weapons, and aliens, that doesn't change that as far as I know or have reason to believe, they are fake, and the things on Earth are real.
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