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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:25 am  Reply with quote

yes, ai was made by us, and they are flawed as we are as a result. i mean they make the exact same mistakes that we did.

and how do you know? what proof do you have that the system will fall apart if there are no good people in bad times and bad in good? we dont know, so please dont make statements like that since theyve never even been tried out! *cough* *wheeze* sorry, im okay now.

my point is that anything is possible, so dont knock it till its been tried, only after its tried can you say it will/wont work, and hell it still could even if it wont! there will always be a few that can live like it, at least thats what the laws of differentiated minds and thoughts say, since there are bound to be more people than just one who would like to live in a society that just *tried* to get along.

and after all "look before you leap", or "HEY FELLERS! WATCH THIS!", whatever floats your boat.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:17 pm  Reply with quote

IF anything is possible, then nothing is possible, because anything being possible makes nothing being possible possible.

=)

BWA!
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 7:56 am  Reply with quote

yes yes, thank you for reitterating a point we made many posts ago!!!!! geez! if they havnt read that one then well theyve got a lot of reading up to do!

and it also makes nothing being possible possibly impossible, yes? take that wordplay! *en gaurde*...........*en taro adun*
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thoth87
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:41 pm  Reply with quote

reitteration is fun...and educational...and annoying to some folks.

oh, and that word play, really, dosn't change the meaning of the statement, just adds another derivitive of the word 'possible'. of course, it DOES add to the cunfuzzlation factor of the statement...

hmm...

*dodges, parries, stabs*

My life for Aiur...
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Datura
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:23 pm  Reply with quote

nightbeest77 wrote:
yes, ai was made by us, and they are flawed as we are as a result. i mean they make the exact same mistakes that we did.


We are not flawed :P

Quote:
and how do you know? what proof do you have that the system will fall apart if there are no good people in bad times and bad in good? we dont know, so please dont make statements like that since theyve never even been tried out! *cough* *wheeze* sorry, im okay now.


_ Yeah, right, whatever. So extreme sceptiscism is allowed on this board, but I'm not allowed to discuss simulation theory? ...

Quote:
my point is that anything is possible, so dont knock it till its been tried, only after its tried can you say it will/wont work, and hell it still could even if it wont! there will always be a few that can live like it, at least thats what the laws of differentiated minds and thoughts say, since there are bound to be more people than just one who would like to live in a society that just *tried* to get along.


Yeah, you know, slavery, and like, pederastry, and segregation worked, didn't they? For a very long time as well, funny that.

Quote:
and after all "look before you leap"


So, basically, I should try to understand the nature of human society before I go discussing the fact that utopias can't exist?

And which part of this *haven't* I done?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:20 am  Reply with quote

oh yeah, perfect (ly flawed!!!) heh

youre perfectly able to, im simply doing what you do to me and contradicting your ideas with my own. deal with it.

they didnt really work, in the end. they all were simply accepted while those who were victims of the system didnt think they could do anything about it. then they realized that they were equal with those who were their "masters' and began to try to do something about it. its also about perception. youre a pessimist im an optimist. you focus on negative things, i do positive. bad apples and good apples again. it was merely a step in becoming a more accepting society. we tried it, it didnt work in the end. and thats what really matters: if it works IN THE END

no, you know damn well i was referring to the previous paragraph when i said "look before you leap" referring to try everything once. and how do we know a utopia cant exist? we simply have not come to enough terms with our measly little minds so as to be able to do it. to quote i believe it was captain nemo in 20,000 leagues under the sea "someday, all of this will come to pass...when mankind is ready, all this will come to pass" i myself choose to believe in this, you can think we all are gonna burn in miserable lives forever, but i'll look at the half full glass thanks.

and both our arguements are based on our own perception, remember that neither of us are right in the end, since its all subjective.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:25 pm  Reply with quote

simulation theory is bull...
and define the 'end'...
and while your at it, define 'working', will you?

please?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:16 pm  Reply with quote

fine, since now youre taking sport in attacking me too...

simulation theory does work, but its still a shitty theory

end - whenever we manage to reach some equlibrium with each other and have a decent, quasi honest society.

working - succeeding at the purpose it was intented for, regardless of the efficiency it succeeded with.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 10:14 pm  Reply with quote

sport in attacking? my dear sir, i thought we were fencing! in such a sport, it is your opponent's job to poke holes in your defense, or in this case, theories. also, i did want a little clarification on what you meant.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:01 am  Reply with quote

aha! you see you, dear sir, have fallen into my trap and such proven a point of mine!

ive been saying that emotions are key to the human psyche, and so i wanted to see how you'd react if i became really annoyed and exasperated. quite ingenious really, since you cant really read my emotion over the web :D

and look what you did! you apologized and seemed guilty for it! im not saying its a bad thing, but my point here is actually two things: first off, emotions do change perceptions, for better or worse is subjective. and second, humans to still have good feelings towards each other, hence you (thoth) offering condolances!

would you like me to try another experiment-ish thing like this datura?
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Datura
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:26 am  Reply with quote

Quote:
they didnt really work, in the end. they all were simply accepted while those who were victims of the system didnt think they could do anything about it. then they realized that they were equal with those who were their "masters' and began to try to do something about it. its also about perception. youre a pessimist im an optimist. you focus on negative things, i do positive. bad apples and good apples again. it was merely a step in becoming a more accepting society. we tried it, it didnt work in the end. and thats what really matters: if it works IN THE END


Everything works. Look, the universe is (and if you bring up descartes, I will bring up simulation theory again... k?). Just because something doesn't exist for long enough for us happy little humans to understand it, or even experience, why does that mean it doesn't work? Why does the simulated end of something mean it "doesn't work"? For something to exist it must have the potential to, and the finality of not existing. For someone who claims to have universal beliefs, you seem very limited in your understandings of things.... (and eye for an eye makes the internet fun) They worked. They helped (and still do) help to hold together empires that work pretty damn fine. Systems do what they're supposed to do. Atoms vibrate, humans yawn and think. If something didn't work, the universe would probably collapse or something.

Quote:
no, you know damn well i was referring to the previous paragraph when i said "look before you leap" referring to try everything once. and how do we know a utopia cant exist? we simply have not come to enough terms with our measly little minds so as to be able to do it. to quote i believe it was captain nemo in 20,000 leagues under the sea "someday, all of this will come to pass...when mankind is ready, all this will come to pass" i myself choose to believe in this, you can think we all are gonna burn in miserable lives forever, but i'll look at the half full glass thanks.


Tsk, shush. You're scaring the fish.

How do you know a utopia can exist? Of course it can exist. Perhaps for an immeasurable instant. But for it to exist, it must at the same time not exist. Perhaps this is all just a universal utopia, every causality perfect, every reaction exact and precise, everything in its place. Because we're all not dancing around may-poles and smiling all the time it's not? That's very narrow minded...

Quote:
simulation theory is bull...


Good opening sentence, now back it up.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:31 am  Reply with quote

ah datura, once again you show your love to attack me and thoth! very well, we continue with the counterattack!!

Quote:
Everything works. Look, the universe is (and if you bring up descartes, I will bring up simulation theory again... k?). Just because something doesn't exist for long enough for us happy little humans to understand it, or even experience, why does that mean it doesn't work? Why does the simulated end of something mean it "doesn't work"? For something to exist it must have the potential to, and the finality of not existing. For someone who claims to have universal beliefs, you seem very limited in your understandings of things.... (and eye for an eye makes the internet fun) They worked. They helped (and still do) help to hold together empires that work pretty damn fine. Systems do what they're supposed to do. Atoms vibrate, humans yawn and think. If something didn't work, the universe would probably collapse or something.


just because i have experienced and accepted them does not mean i have to live by them. an eye for another eye, if you will. and for someone closed minded, logical, and inclined towards the death penalty, you are at this forum, even if to kick it down some. so its like copernicus or galileo, we say something, you say something, and just take it back when someone threatens to kill you for it. but the fact remains that YOUVE BEEN EXPOSED TO IT so it will be a part of you from now on, for better or worse is for you to figure out. and i say once again, have you tried having something not work and having the universe collapse as a result? just like with all theories. THEY ARE JUST THEORIES so stop bringing them all up. we cant prove shit, so lighten up. the point here is to get ideas out, and while you are doing so, you could be doing so in a more efficient less confrontational manner. but then again, perhaps you gain mental stimulation from confrontations, so what can i say? after all, anything is possible.

Quote:
How do you know a utopia can exist? Of course it can exist. Perhaps for an immeasurable instant. But for it to exist, it must at the same time not exist. Perhaps this is all just a universal utopia, every causality perfect, every reaction exact and precise, everything in its place. Because we're all not dancing around may-poles and smiling all the time it's not? That's very narrow minded...


and why must it not exist? and perfect is relative as well. and narrow minded? youre the one blindly attacking and bringing down our ideas. ive already taken much of what you said into account but like ive said before (and this one for you) the nonexistant glass is nonexistantly half full with nonexistant water/milk/tea/soda/beer/wine. that enough political correctness for you, logicman?

Quote:
Good opening sentence, now back it up.


and why does he have to? while what we believe in may seem like an ignorant childish fantasy to yourself, you never know who will get the last laugh. besides many of your theories are also based on your beliefs as well. though highly pessimistic, i do agree that they do work, but the trial and error in application of theories is really the only way to see if they work for any at all.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:33 pm  Reply with quote

simulation theory is bull, because even simulations are a 'reality' in a sense. just because techno is simulated saxophone and other insturments stuck together (which sounds rather terrible, i might add,and will), dosn't mean it isn't real sound. just because a flight simulator is not a real airplane console, it is a real simulator. there. backed it up, JUST FOR YOU, Datura. now let's see your attack. course i backed it up with my own ideas, based on my own thoughts and observations, and not on some old man's idea on why the world goes round (if indeed, it does at all. it does to us mind you, but perhaps not to others, and that's what really matters).

and no Beest, i wasn't apologizing (at least, i didn't want to) i just attempted to warn you that , in such a sport as fencing, one must be...

ON GUARD!
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Datura
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:13 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
blah blah blah unimportant stuff....

just like with all theories. THEY ARE JUST THEORIES so stop bringing them all up. we cant prove shit, so lighten up. the point here is to get ideas out, and while you are doing so, you could be doing so in a more efficient less confrontational manner. but then again, perhaps you gain mental stimulation from confrontations, so what can i say? after all, anything is possible.


Um, so, erm, what was your point again? So I should stop bringing them all up, because you can't deal with them? So, this is a forum, for discussing them all, and yet I can't bring them up?

Erm, yep, right... I'm going over *here* now...

Quote:
and why does he have to?


Because that's how *logical* (something that seems to be a precious quality favoured by you gentlemen around here) discussions work, you know?

Quote:
simulation theory is bull, because even simulations are a 'reality' in a sense. just because techno is simulated saxophone and other insturments stuck together (which sounds rather terrible, i might add,and will), dosn't mean it isn't real sound. just because a flight simulator is not a real airplane console, it is a real simulator. there. backed it up, JUST FOR YOU, Datura.


*applauds* Nice work. And I agree with you. But simulation theory isn't nessarcerily negative (ie simulations= bad). In Simulacra & Simulations Baudrillard isn't negative, more accepting of the situation we inhabit (with only a hint of philosophical nostalgia that all theorists have to throw in to be taken seriously by their peers, see below about power politics). He does seem to mope a bit when it comes to modern political power (I think he wishes we still killed our rulers instead of just kicking them out, and honestly, sometimes I do too) and of course he has to bemoan the simulation of capital (which is fair enough) as any good post-Marxist cultural theorist must. But I don't think simulation theory means "bad simulation theory".

So yeah, your idea is pretty much what "some old man" thinks. How do you feel about that? *prods and winks*
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:45 pm  Reply with quote

better an old man than a foolish young one, ive always thought.

my point is dont rely only on theories, make your own set of beliefs instead of relying on others. i have my own, regardless of what other philosophs and intellectuals have thought up. even if we thought the same thing in some ways, ive tweaked it to my own personal specifications. you know, what you think as opposed to what all other intellectuals think.

and who says we favor logic? i put a great deal of emotion into my arguements with you as well.

and i never said it was negative, i said it had its flaws, but it does produce results. thats all. simulation theory is like trial and error that i brought up. works, yes. well, no. at least in things regarding masses of people (i reference you to the things you said challenging about trial and error, slavery and such)

and whether you meant to apologize or not, it sounded like you did, *parrys thrust from thoth* and you see? i myself am always on gaurd! or at least i try to be. can you tell when im not???
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