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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:14 pm  Reply with quote

Obviously you didnt read the original "Honoring the Transport" post. His system of beliefs is simple. The core beliefs are simple: live how you will...and develop according to experiences had along the way, passing them on if you choose to. How in the hell is this a bad theory? what makes it a flawed or even a bad belief system? its a marvelous core belief system, its the one i live with day by day.

And if he hurts someone? granted i take your side on this one Realist, but for arguements sake i'm going to bash your loophole here. You think its bad for him to hurt someone else, however if the need arose and he had to kill someone because of some circumstance, regardless of what it might be, then transport could justify it as easily as you can condemn it. Its all about opinions in this thread again. Methinks that we need to ease up a little on the opinion bashing arguements a bit around the forum.
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Realist
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:58 pm  Reply with quote

Cause that's only part of the theory. Granted i haven't read the post, and im going to go look at it now, but there is this entire other portion of the argument, namely the actual transport experience, which has a different set of connotations entirely. I live my life according to the principles you just listed, but I dont preach that there is another part of the universe that no one else can see. There is a none-too-subtle difference between what transport says to act like, and what he says to believe. My problem is with the beliefs, not the behavior.

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You think its bad for him to hurt someone else, however if the need arose and he had to kill someone because of some circumstance, regardless of what it might be, then transport could justify it as easily as you can condemn it.


I'm really confused in where you got this from. What loophole did I leave. People have all sorts of excuses about why they killed someone, but that doesn't reverse the fact that someone is dead.

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Methinks that we need to ease up a little on the opinion bashing arguements a bit around the forum.


If there wasn't any opinion bashing, whats the point of the forum. Simply standing here shouting "You're opinion is stupid!" would be cause for concern, but what i see here is a very intense debate, with each side firmly backing up their beliefs and finding flaw's in their opponent's statements.
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transport22
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:53 pm  Reply with quote

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Spirituality works because you believe it will work. Anyone who tries your program must believe something will happen for them or nothing will.


No, I disagree. Kundalini yoga is an ancient spiritual technology of the mind/body/spirit. Entheogens connect one to the living library of Earth, which is the elemental source of our physical form. Its a merging of the plant mind with the human for a mutual exchange of knowledge and experience. Fasting purifies the body of toxins and impurities stored through improper diet, environmental pollution, negative emotions, and subconscious beliefs that we are still energetically manifesting. If one is objective and tries the test, transformation will occur. It's as simple as that. Whether you believe so or not is your choice. Either way, the only real way to dis-prove my test and validate your theory would be to try and see. The ol' scientific method!

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So go off and do work you believe is important in the Amazon and around the world. I wish you mixed success; success convincing people to be peaceful, but failure with coverting them to your belief system. I wish this because it is not my belief system, and that means you are not a part of my pack.


Yet peace comes with wholeness and healing, by realizing that the part cannot be separated from the whole, and that war and destruction is an external manifestation of our own internal struggles. We feel disconnected from our own creative source within, and so we try to fill that space with external distractions so that we’ll feel okay. "It’s not my fault this is the way it is, it’s the world’s fault or that packs fault or my brother’s fault." All packs, regardless of their beliefs, are human and made up of the same substance: a subtle field of energy expressing itself at different vibrational intensities. Your pack sees the world in terms of fragmentation and separation because reality exists as a mirror; you see reality as you are now, based upon your current level of consciousness. And yet, fundamentally, we are all One; connected by the same field of energy as everything else in this universe, made up of the same stuff. Being TRULY spiritual means being aware of the consciousness in all forms and honoring it as equal to you, which it is. It's also a way of life where one thinks, feels, and moves towards creating greater wholeness, inner peace, and the true discovery of who we are in the world, both individually and en masse.

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Ultimately our disagreement boils down to the fact that I don't believe that there is any such thing as a spiritual existence. All of the things you suggest in your test are ways of infulencing your body and brain chemistry, and have been documented as such. You say it will lead you to realising something spiritual. I say it will train your mind into giving itself signals. A slight difference in intrepration, really.


People often make that distinction, although its erroneous. Physicality is not separate from the subtle. Being spiritual has a direct effect on the body. They are both part of the same expression of consciousness, and thus affect one another.


Last edited by transport22 on Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:44 pm  Reply with quote

Transport covered a good many points that i was going to make, so i'll just direct mine to where i got that idea.
its simple in the exact opposite way that you put it. Regardless of the fact that someone is dead, sometimes the excuse can be vital or even a noble good thing. Its all about whos on the recieving end of the pain in this case. (including relations)
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Realist
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:09 pm  Reply with quote

Part of my disagreement about death comes from my own immence fear of it. With my belief system, death is the very end. Basically like going to sleep forever. I don't know what your beliefs on the topic are, but they are probably different.

Please note that in this case, i sincerely hope that i'm wrong. Nothingness is my worst fear, not being able to even think. And that's what i think death is. If there is some sort of afterlife I will be overjoyed. I just can't make myself believe it, though.

Honestly, this debate is pointless. I think that there is no such thing as an energy field and a library of knowledge or anything else like that. I'm putting serious thought into trying this style of living, if only for a little while. But my thesis statement is that nothing will happen. You believe that I'm blinding myself to the way the world really works. However, I don't think we're ever going to convince each other of our points of view.
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transport22
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:13 am  Reply with quote

We may never convince each other of our beliefs, but that's only one way to look at our debates. I think we are learning and sharing views and experiences about reality with each other, which is constructive. You've had a great grounding effect on my teaching style, both in this forum and in my classes. Sometimes I take it for granted how others actually think about reality when spiritual teachers and seekers constantly surround me. Your influence has forced me to communicate what I know in a different language, and that's been invaluable.

So, I'm really not here to convince anybody. For me, it’s about expressing my creative essence, discovering what knowledge I've accumulated inside throughout my life, how effectively I can transfer those ideas and teachings into words, and humbly changing myself if necessary based upon how others react to my beliefs, my teaching style, and my personality.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:51 pm  Reply with quote

If death is what you fear the most and what lies at the end of your belief system, simply augment your beliefs with those of someone else. An afterlife on a different plane is a simple thing, and honestly excellent thing to believe in, and it can make the end a whole lot better. And if you truly believe, then it can wind up becoming, no?
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Realist
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:49 pm  Reply with quote

quote]If death is what you fear the most and what lies at the end of your belief system, simply augment your beliefs with those of someone else.[/quote]

But that's one of the issues i have with a belief system like yours. Just because i believe something doesn't mean that it will happen. It would be better for me to try to figure out what really happens, rather than make something else. How do i know if the person i augmented from was right?

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An afterlife on a different plane is a simple thing, and honestly excellent thing to believe in, and it can make the end a whole lot better.


It's a simple thing to think up, and to convince yourself is real, but its not a simple thing to prove exists. But, actually it doesn't effect the end one iota. It just changes what you think will happen.

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And if you truly believe, then it can wind up becoming, no?


No. There are thousands of precidents saything that what you believe doesn't make it happen. Believing that the Earth was the center of the universe had no effect on our position, just as believing that the earth was flat didn't change the fact that we're sphereical.
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transport22
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:16 am  Reply with quote

Realist wrote:
It's a simple thing to think up, and to convince yourself is real, but its not a simple thing to prove exists. But, actually it doesn't effect the end one iota. It just changes what you think will happen.


I think that our beliefs about death do shape the end to a degree, namely the quality and grace with which we face the great unknown when the time comes. There are many schools of thought about what happens when we die: flat lining into a big zero, or reincarnation, or a heaven or a hell, or perhaps just a short jaunt to another dimension of experience where we don another mask of alien being. Whatever our beliefs about that final moment of departure may be, it has a direct effect on how we live our lives Now. It's kind of like a novelist saying that how she thinks the book will end has no effect on the course of the adventure unfolding within her imagination. Without death, and our pondering of the concept of ending, we'd fail to truly tap into the depths of our reason for being here.

I suppose the real question death brings is: does life have meaning? And, more specifically, does MY life have meaning?

If we answer affirmatively, then we have an obligation to guide our lives so that we can experience as much of that meaning as possible; to strive for those dreams and goals that allow us to feel love, to grow in wisdom, and to share, teach, and help others how to do the same, to create a world of meaning. We can create meaning as easily as we can create non-meaning in this Universe, it takes but a choice of will. The flaw is that when we create non-meaning and when we create a belief that we are meaningless in a meaningless world, we negate and dam up our ability to create and strive for more meaning. And thus a downward spiral ensues, into the dark realms of fear, resistance to what is, and the inability to move beyond the prison we’ve constructed within our own minds.

If the answer to the questions above is NO, then what's the point in going on living? Why do we continue on with the façade that life means something and just get it over and done with? Fear of the unknown. Instead of taking their own lives, they stay shackled to a reality they don't find value in. Instead of accepting the mystery and uncertainty of life, they perpetuate stagnation in themselves and the world based upon the fear of instigating creative change towards manifesting something new and different.

Perhaps the true meaning of life can only be found in the struggle to find and create meaning. Those that do find meaning do so by moving through their fears, doubts, and insecurities, by facing the various challenges and struggles life brings, and by transmuting the inner darkness into an outer light. Light is the result of the ability to assimilate and disseminate love & wisdom by journeying into the unknown with the courage and trust that one's own place in the Universe is unique and vaulable.
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Realist
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:55 am  Reply with quote

We have meaning. It's to procreate. Besides that, why would my life mean any more than anything else? When I die, it means that certian chemical reactions stop happening in my body. That's it.

The novelist is a bad example, because she has complete control of what goes on in the story. She could write that they ride off into the sunset, that they end up face down in a ditch, or that their TV jumps up and sings hampster dance. Whatever happens when we die, its not going to be affected by what we think will happen.

It also depends on what your reason for being here is. It's not enough to simply say that we have one. For all we know, our meaning could be to kill and enslave eachother. You say that it's teaching and growing as a person, I say its to raise children. Few people say that there's no reason for people to be on earth, but we rarely agree on what that reason is.

There is a great Calvin and Hobbes strip, where Calvin says "What if this live is all we get? What if this is all there is?" Hobbes thinks for a minute, then says, "What the heck, I'll take it anyway." Thats basically what i think of death.

Finally, anyone's place in the universe is not unique and valuable. If you're gene's aren't up to spec, then you'll die, and no one will care save for a few associates. But then they'll die, and will be forgotten in less than 200 years. But, if their genes have benificial traits, they'll hopefully manage to pass on their genes. In which case they'll have fufilled their meaning in life, and will die.

The reason we don't try to end life, even if it is meaningless, is that for millions of years, every member of our species who did removed their genes from the pool, so we have very, very few suicidal genes left.
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transport22
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:39 pm  Reply with quote

Realist wrote:
We have meaning. It's to procreate. Besides that, why would my life mean any more than anything else?


Ah...just my point. Your meaning for life is to procreate. My meaning for life is to procreate and to create. This means I have the power and potential to create my world and my life to my heart's fancy. It's all about the creativity principle.

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When I die, it means that certian chemical reactions stop happening in my body. That's it.


Maybe that's it, though you'll never know without the direct and personal experience of your own death. If it hasn't been directly experienced, it's all a form of faith on a story from an external source, no matter what the credentials are.

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The novelist is a bad example, because she has complete control of what goes on in the story. She could write that they ride off into the sunset, that they end up face down in a ditch, or that their TV jumps up and sings hampster dance. Whatever happens when we die, its not going to be affected by what we think will happen.


You mis-read my intention. I never said that how we live our lives and what we think about death changes what happens after death. Whatever we think about death affects how we live our lives Now, in this moment, and the quality of our final acceptance as death nears.

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It also depends on what your reason for being here is. It's not enough to simply say that we have one. For all we know, our meaning could be to kill and enslave eachother. You say that it's teaching and growing as a person, I say its to raise children. Few people say that there's no reason for people to be on earth, but we rarely agree on what that reason is.


Yes, reality as well as meaning, is relative. Yet you seem to miss the fact that raising children is all about growth and learning to live in the world. We don't stop growing as humans when we've shot our seed into an egg and then deliver that life form from the womb.

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Finally, anyone's place in the universe is not unique and valuable. If you're gene's aren't up to spec, then you'll die, and no one will care save for a few associates. But then they'll die, and will be forgotten in less than 200 years. But, if their genes have benificial traits, they'll hopefully manage to pass on their genes. In which case they'll have fufilled their meaning in life, and will die.


I believe I have value and that I'm unique. No two snowflakes are alike, so how could any two humans? You believe you are valueless and not unique. Both beliefs are built upon the underlying uncertainty of nature and the future. If that's it, why do you still search for the evidence and proof that there's not something more? Why still come back to this forum if you aren't yearning for something different than what you know? Hopefully its not to teach somebody who finds meaning in themselves that they are meaningless. What would be the point?

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The reason we don't try to end life, even if it is meaningless, is that for millions of years, every member of our species who did removed their genes from the pool, so we have very, very few suicidal genes left.


No, because we completely fear the only thing that is known, our own suffering Ego. Our Ego is a collection of beliefs about who we are and what reality is. To commit suicide or to take an entheogen or to dedicate time towards meditation, dissolves the Ego and is a movement into the moment and a form of death to who we think we are and what the world is. It's keeping a fresh view on life based upon this moment, here and now. When we intellectualize and compartamentalize the world into a concept or theory, there's the habit to brush off the hands and say, "Ta Da, this is how it is and how it was and how it always will be. I know more than you!"

Modern society is predominatly left brained and so we are out of balance with the cyclical, abstract, feminine, intuitive part on the right. And that part of our being cannot be put into words and explained, but only felt and experienced. To find our own personal meanings, the real ones on the other side of our deepest fears, means a certain form of death by embracing all polarities, and trying out all options of what life has to offer.

That's what the Realist test will give you, a form of death to every aspect of your being. It'll bring you in greater balance with your heart and moving center, so that you are also feeling and taking action through life instead of just thinking about it. It's a way to find greater meaning by having the courage to let everything you've ever known about reality to be tested directly.
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Realist
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:00 pm  Reply with quote

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Maybe that's it, though you'll never know without the direct and personal experience of your own death. If it hasn't been directly experienced, it's all a form of faith on a story from an external source, no matter what the credentials are.


But we can base our theories on the given information. We've observed the chemical reactions stopping, but we've never observed anything else.

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You mis-read my intention. I never said that how we live our lives and what we think about death changes what happens after death. Whatever we think about death affects how we live our lives Now, in this moment, and the quality of our final acceptance as death nears.


It does, but all I can see in believing in life after death is making people think life is less valuable. People suicide bomb because they think there's something waiting for them on the other side. I've yet to hear of an athiest suicide bomber.

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Yes, reality as well as meaning, is relative. Yet you seem to miss the fact that raising children is all about growth and learning to live in the world. We don't stop growing as humans when we've shot our seed into an egg and then deliver that life form from the womb.


Yes, but that growth is unimportant beyond it effecting our ability to get the children to children of their own. The same goes for the children.

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I believe I have value and that I'm unique. No two snowflakes are alike, so how could any two humans? You believe you are valueless and not unique. Both beliefs are built upon the underlying uncertainty of nature and the future. If that's it, why do you still search for the evidence and proof that there's not something more? Why still come back to this forum if you aren't yearning for something different than what you know? Hopefully its not to teach somebody who finds meaning in themselves that they are meaningless. What would be the point?


Human's are unique, but the differences are very minor. As to anyone's value; value to who? Value to what? People are only valuable to a few people around them, besides that, their valueless to anyone or anything, besides their ability to pass on their genes. Why do you think people are valuable. Think about it. Think about where you live. Think about the country you're in. Think about the entire planet, and your size related to it. Think about how, in relation to the sun, you're not where you were when you started reading this sentance. You're hundreds of miles away, pulled along by the earth. Then think about the size of the solar system, think about the size of the entire universe. In light of all that, any individual human is nothing. Even as a species, we're nothing but a successful evountionary design.

The whole idea of ego was developed after most of the genes that would make you more likely to commit suicide were pretty much removed. The whole idea of ego was developed after this part of evolution was far underway, and was heavily infulenced by these genes. And yes, while how you were raised heavily infulences how you end up, genes still strongly affect your actions and behavior.

Wouldn't believing that there is no point to life about as cynicial as you can get?

I don't understand the Realist test. Is it in another thread?
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transport22
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:55 pm  Reply with quote

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But we can base our theories on the given information. We've observed the chemical reactions stopping, but we've never observed anything else.


Of course not. How could a few random electrodes designed to measure the physical body's bio-rhythms measure any kind of evidence of life after death? They are a physical science based upon matter, not a subtle technology designed to follow consciousness/spirit. And there's an enormous amount of data and constitency amoung those who've been dead and then revived, the Near Death Experience (which, by the way, I have experienced myself). I know I'm repeating myself but Holographic Universe is a great resource for scientific evidence for many spiritual phenomenons.

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It does, but all I can see in believing in life after death is making people think life is less valuable.


That's just your point-of-view, although I see where you're coming from. And I totally agree with your views about the archaic and outdated belief systems of most of the world religions. They no longer serve us and they create the majority of the world's problems. You have to realize that, although I'm a spiritualist, I am not religious. I have no need for them. I base my beliefs, which are constantly being tested and changed, on my direct, personal experiences with the techniques and technology of shaminism and yoga. And the Far East population, whom most believe in reincarnation, do create a way of life that has more value in the present moment based upon that belief. The truth is that most of the predomienent beliefs about life after death are based upon guilt, sin, taboo...sold to us as a strategy by those that control the masses by brain-washing us with fear so as to stay on top of the pyramid of power. So I agree and disagree with you.

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I've yet to hear of an athiest suicide bomber.


This is because, from my own observations and experiences, athiests have the most fear regarding death.

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Yes, but that growth is unimportant beyond it effecting our ability to get the children to children of their own. The same goes for the children.


This is a point-of-view that is easily conceived of by an adolescent consciousness. With more time and experience you'll discover that your own personal growth Now is just as valuable as seeding future generations. Note that I'm not saying that anything your saying is wrong. I have a great respect for all the sciences and an immense gratitude for all that we've discovered, the marvels we've created, and the ideas and theories about reality that seem to hold up. But there is an undeniable mystery to life that the greatest of scienctist will attest to. A strong yearning to know more and realize ourselves and this realm we exist in. Science is wonderful, but its just information reflecting reality, not what reality actually is. Do you never at all experience the underlying mystery and wonder about life?

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Human's are unique, but the differences are very minor. As to anyone's value; value to who? Value to what? People are only valuable to a few people around them, besides that, their valueless to anyone or anything, besides their ability to pass on their genes. Why do you think people are valuable.


Value and self-worth is cultivated by combining conscious awareness with self empowerment. It's an essential code of wisdom for maintaining and creating a vital existence. When you cultivate this within yourself you will see it reflected in the world and environment. Again, reality existing as a mirror and teacher.

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Think about it. Think about where you live. Think about the country you're in. Think about the entire planet, and your size related to it. Think about how, in relation to the sun, you're not where you were when you started reading this sentance. You're hundreds of miles away, pulled along by the earth. Then think about the size of the solar system, think about the size of the entire universe. In light of all that, any individual human is nothing. Even as a species, we're nothing but a successful evountionary design.


And yet we're something. In the vastness of all the Universe, you are here, alive, intelligent, and conscious. Whatever one's beliefs about reality, life is a rare gift, which you just pointed out. A gift where you can experience something as profound as love, search for the truths of the nature of existence, and manifest anything you want if you creatively will it. It's a gift you seem to be deeply denying, which is your own birthright as a human. You constantly affirm data and information about what life is, but not your own life experience. Why?

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The whole idea of ego was developed after most of the genes that would make you more likely to commit suicide were pretty much removed. The whole idea of ego was developed after this part of evolution was far underway, and was heavily infulenced by these genes. And yes, while how you were raised heavily infulences how you end up, genes still strongly affect your actions and behavior.


This is but a theory and not directly testable. Another theory is that man in the Africian planes began to injest the entheogen Amanita muscaria, a consciousness expanding plant medicine. This fusion of primal man with the plant intelligence allowed us to become conscious of ourselves and paved the way for the Ego to be born, and thus our inheritance as a conscious form of intelligent life able to ponder and create reality, not just to procreate. Reference "Food of the Gods" by Terence Mckenna for more information and a differing point-of-view.

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I don't understand the Realist test. Is it in another thread?


From an earlier post:

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The Realist Test

Fast for 3 days and 3 nights on pure vegetable and fruit juices and journal your experiences. Create and work with an intention that means something deeply to you. Have a shamanic experience with a plant medicine and allow it to guide you and teach you about healing and wholeness. Then begin to meditate and do yoga (especially Kundalini Yoga) for the next month at least twice a week. During that time read: "Last Hours of the Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann, "Messages from Water" by Emoto, "Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot, and "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn...in that order for a rational, scientific, and spiritual view of reality. Have gratitude for your friends and family, the things you own, the food you eat and the water you drink. Spend one weekend out in nature in silence without any agendas; exploring the land, the insects, the plants, the sunsets, the stars, the elements, and your relationship to it all.

If you do these things, your life will change in ways you can't explain with proof or evidence, only based upon the transformation happening within. And if you need help or explanation with any of those techniques, ask...it's my job. And I encourage you to give me a similar test if you have one.
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Realist
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:10 am  Reply with quote

If we cannot track any of these things when people die, how do you know that anything happens?

Those who have been dead and then revived had very interesting things happen to their brain chemistry, which is why they believe that something else happened to them. The near-death-experience usually gives you this nice little mental disorder called post truamatic stress disorder, and can warp a person's perseption of reality. I'll look into the book.

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This is a point-of-view that is easily conceived of by an adolescent consciousness. With more time and experience you'll discover that your own personal growth Now is just as valuable as seeding future generations.


Ah yes, the "You're just a kid and as you get older you'll believe what I'm saying," argument. Either never use it again, or I will never answer another one of your posts, because you'll have revealed yourself to be a ignorant bigot who has no true way of rebutting my arguments.

Anyway, even if I do eventually decide that there is more to life than procreation, it will only be important to me and others who are too old to breed anymore. It will not matter to anyone else what I believe, and it will certianly not matter to the universe. Again, the statement is that we don't know YET, not that we'll never know the answers to the universe. Humans have been around for what, a hundred thousand years? That's an eyeblink to the earth, let alone the timescale of the universe. I think we're doing pretty well in terms of understanding the universe, considering how young our species is. What do you mean, information reflecting reality? It's information explaining reality as we currently understand it. I do experience the underlying mystery and wonder, but I try to explain it by being rational and using evidence, rather than faith.

We, to the universe, are nothing. I don't say this because I have low self-esteem, as humans go I think I'm one of the better ones, but if a meteor hit the Earth, completely destroying the entire human race in one instant, no one would care. The only things that have ever cared about the lives of individual human beings is other human beings. I don't comment on my own life experiences because they hold no revelence to the point's I'm trying to make, besides saything that nothing I have ever experienced in any way relates to yours.

Excuse me while I compose myself from utter shock. This theory claims that we started eating a plant, injested plant intellegence, and then became intellegent? Allow me to explain why I'm appaled. First, anything eaten is first mashed into a pulp, subjected to enzymes, soaked in acid, turned to paste, has any nutrients absorbed, and finally anything that can't be used is excreted. The entire point of this is for the nutrients we need to survive to be drawn out from the food, so whatever this conciousness expanding drug is, it would need to survive this treatment. Second, we have never, at ANY point, had any reason to believe that any plants are intellegent. Third, any plant that is classified as a conciousness expander is probably also on the controled substances list of the united states police force, or is being looked into as a drug. Four, if this led to human intelegence, then has it's effects suddenly stopped? Because if they haven't that would mean that anyone who ate more of this drug would become smarter and smarter. Finally, does this man have any evidence whatsoever to prove his theory? Darwin and his theory of evolution have the fossil record, as well as many documented cases for evolution happening. It is also pretty obious that becomming smarter was a successful evolutionary design, condisering that we are the dominant species on the planet. Before you use this outragious theory, prove that it has any substance to it.
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transport22
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:38 am  Reply with quote

I apologize you were offended by the adolescent consciousness statement, but, in all fairness and truth, that's where you were coming from. Note that I'm not calling you a kid; I'm saying that your statement and belief reflected the perspective of a stereotypical youth-rules mentality. There are many adolescents who don't have that mentality and many adults who do. Here's another test: go to the billions of men and women who've passed their most fertile stage of life and tell them that the growth they're experiencing is a sham. Be sincere in your approach and don't be too surprised if there's a lot of laughter involved in the process. The evidence you search for on this topic can only be found in the actual process of living life, not by burying your nose in a book and projecting a theory from data onto another's life. That IS being an ignorant bigot, although we all do have that right. At what age did Darwin draw forth his conclusions about evolution? And Newton about physics? Or whomever you consider your mentors and teachers. I doubt that it was before the age of 30. The more one lives the more one learns. This learning translates into ideas, feelings, and actions that are more refined, mature, and sophisticated as we accumulate, assimilate, and coalesce knowledge into wisdom. Every moment of our lives, the Now, is valid and full of growth, which never stops and only deepens with time.

Yes...information reflecting reality. They're models and should be understood as models and not as reality. It's like looking at a map of the United States and claiming that the map IS the United States. I'm not saying that the map is wrong, I'm saying that taking a roadtrip around the US will give you a truer feel for what's being studied and observed. You can call me a spiritualist, you can hear my life story, you can speak with all my friends, and then you can create a model of who I am and how I act. Yet, I am and will always be more than what that information reflects. And I understand that we will continue to gather more and more information to fine tune our ideas and test our theories, and I support that. Yet, the true nature of the Universe lies beyond the mind's ability to conceptualize it into one theory. One can only know the terrain of the Universe by living it, not just thinking about it. The mind and it functions are but one part of being alive as a human being. You can dissect and classify and separate a tree into all its different parts, but you'll never understand a tree for what it is unless you can exist as one for a time. All life has a form of organizing intelligence behind it; it’s a matter of degree. Man thinks he can project his ideas about reality on reality and claim it as such. But its only reality as defined by our reality, which are ideas that a science we've created ourselves support.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things nothing matters. I agree. And it's logical to say that since nothing matters in the grand scheme, nothing matters now. It’s a valid point and rational, but also one sided. Again, its lies in the domain of the left-brain. Your beliefs constantly state that the Universe is not orderly/rational, so your argument falls short. Einstein was quoted as saying that imagination is more important than knowledge. Most of his theories were conceived while he daydreamed or meditated on spirit. The brain's right side can be incorporated into our lives through artistic means, honing the imagination, listening to feelings, and accessing the feminine within. It means becoming balanced in our thought processes by using intuitive intelligence. We are both physical (physical) and subtle (emotional,mental) beings. The Universe has characteristics of both order and chaos. If you don't believe so look at your life. Have you not embodied the very essence of searching for order and the rational in your studies, and also felt lost in the endless ocean of 'what is' the Universe? The Universe does have order because we have order and we are part of the Universe and not separate from it. We are a model that reflects reality to others. My belief is that everything is inherently a paradox, both of order and chaos, subtle and physical, and by embracing the eye of that paradox, and all the opposites of what is or can be, one finds true freedom and the ability to create any reality they choose.

Have you ever had a psychedelic experience? Have you ever experimented with mushrooms or peyote with an intention to discover the deepest portions of your beliefs and ideas regarding reality? Have you ever directly tested who you are and what you believe in ways others than logic or thought? Purchase some mushrooms, take a fairly large dose, sit in a dark room with no distractions, and see what happens. It's that simple. After that you can speak with authority about plant medicines all you want. Until then, you aren't being an objective scientist, just a skeptic materialist.

I'm going to let this thread die now, or at least my part in it. It was a valuable experience for a time, but its usefulness has passed. We're going nowhere fast. I've enjoyed expressing my views about reality with you, but it does take a certain amount of energy to engage in such a debate. My intention is to redirect that time and energy into my own personal growth, into the techinques and technology that brings me closer to my own truth, a space where I can experience and express deeper forms of love, and to explore my creativity and energy. A technology that can be taught, that works, and whose effects bring very beneficial changes to the human being struggling to find balance and purpose in today's chaotic world. I'm sure you'll agree that your life will be best served if your energy is focused back into your studies and the things that bring you purpose and happiness.

Good debating on spirit vs matter though.
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