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thoth87
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:19 pm  Reply with quote

hey realist, something for you to chew on. I don't believe in anything supernatural either. I believe people can control their body temperatures, force themselves to shrug off pain and even physical damage, repair themselves more quickly than most other people, and even move things about without actually touching them. I don't believe in anything supernatural, though.
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transport22
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:46 am  Reply with quote

How can anything be supernatural? The space shuttle would appear supernatural to an isolated tribe in the Amazon. It's a matter of our degree of understanding the world we live in. Everything that exists is part of the natural order of all things, and yet there's always an underlying mystery. The underlying mystery has been called the 'supernatural' by those that could not explain it, but it's simply an unknown we haven't experimented with yet. An event or situation that seems extraordinary and beyond 'the observer's' notion of nature is really just a phenomenon that has yet to be theorized into a concept or technology we can apply freely.
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Realist
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:54 am  Reply with quote

Thoth:
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hey realist, something for you to chew on. I don't believe in anything supernatural either. I believe people can control their body temperatures, force themselves to shrug off pain and even physical damage,


You're right, because we have documented proof of these things happening.

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repair themselves more quickly than most other people, and even move things about without actually touching them. I don't believe in anything supernatural, though.


But this is supernatural, because people claim that they can do it, but cannot do it for scientists. The supernatural is anything that cannot be proven with the scientific theory.

Tansport: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indiscinguable from magic.

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Everything that exists is part of the natural order of all things, and yet there's always an underlying mystery


Ah, here is where i think i differ from most other people in this thread. I don't think there is a natural order of things, and i don't see any other meanings of natural events. For example:

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The mechanics of the Universe works in cycles (circles, spirals, and ellipses).


Yes, they do, but because of good mathmatical logic, rather than a "balance."

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Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter. Day, Night, Day, Night. Moons orbit planets which orbit stars which orbit galaxies


The seasons are because of a wobbeling in the earth, and are a part of a cycle, but not because things naturally try to become a cycle. Moons orbit planets because gravity is pulling them towards the planet and their own velocity is trying to escape, not because they would naturally drift into an orbit. Do you have any idea how hard it is to set up the space shuttle in an orbit? Complicated math, precice thruster bursts, and dozens of other things are required to make that happen. The same is true for planets. Stars don't orbit galaxies, the are a part of a galaxy.

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all while the very inhalations and exhalations of our bodies model these rhythms.


No, they don't. We inhale and exhale because that is the most efficent way for us to get oxygen, so those of us with lungs have done better when competeing against other species. However, there are still many species, such as some frogs, that simply absorb oxygen through their skin. So are they less in tune with the natural order you claim?

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"I don't think you found your "non proof", I think you tricked your mind and body into telling your conscious self that something wasn't going on that was.


Ah.

Prove it.

We have no evidence that anything that goes on in the universe is anything other than random chance. The reason i'm here is because after the big bang, certian particles collased into the sun. Then more became the earth. Then some became amino-acids, which then became life. Life then evolved through sucessful breeding. I am the product of billions of my ancestors managing to pass on their genes before they died. Frankly, it's amazing i'm here at all.

You're looking at the natural things too hard, and are getting your evidence from where there is none. "Overall, the simplist answer is probably the correct one." My answer to the universe is chance, which we observe every day, and observation of forces we can reconise. Your answer is that there is a as-yet undocumented force that is effecting everything in the universe; keeping it in balance.

Which is simpler?

I challenge you to find me proof of your claims, because you are asking people to behave a certian way and to think certian things based on your claims. Unless you can reasonably assert that you are right, why should anyone believe you?
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thoth87
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:26 pm  Reply with quote

That's where I agree. randomness rules the world, the universe, everything. but I do think that some things are a bit too coincidential to be overlooked. all that that Transport said, I can't really accept as being true. but hey, that's the way it is sometimes.
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transport22
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:30 am  Reply with quote

First off Realist, I want to thank you for being here and giving me the opportunity to reflect on myself, see what I truly believe, and how I might communicate in a compassionate and neutral way. I feel I'm getting a taste of my own medicine from my debates with Beest in the 'Honoring the Transport' post. And honestly, I must say that there is no way I can prove to you my experiences and teachings about the nature of reality, especially in the scientific manner of evidence and proof existing in the physical~gross~matter. It's completely subjective and I've found my evidence in the synchronistic events of my own life and in the scholarly, scientific, and spiritual work of many others. It all depends on which theories you accept. There are mavericks and renegade scientists that support my views, but they are not generally accepted as a majority in the world of experimentation. Check out the book "Holographic Universe" for a complete index of men and women who have found all kinds of 'evidence' for many, many claims you would term 'supernatural'. Supernatural, as defined by you, as being anything that science cannot prove in a test in its current state of technological advancement.

And yet, you cannot dis-prove me either. It's impossible for you to become me at the moment of my Transport Experience and to feel, think, and understand what I was shown. Nor can you show me evidence or proof of your own atheism. I challenge you to show me evidence for your non-belief without being subjective.... and without proof that you've found external of yourself from others in the form of books, teachers, television, the media, or even a PBS special on what 'reality' is by someone in 'authority'. Show me your unbelief. You cannot, it's impossible. All you have is your ideas, concepts, and theories about reality that closely mirror what the current scientific society has deemed 'real' in early 21st century Earth. Can you prove to me that you have feelings of love for your friends and family? Can you prove to me that you have a dream to make something of yourself beyond the communication of words? Can you prove to me that nothing exists beyond the macro-realms of our most powerful telescopes or within the depths of the micro-dimensions beyond the quantum field? They cannot be tested scientifically and there's no evidence based upon our current technology that there's deeper levels.... is that it? Does reality stop where are technology and theories end? Are these realms supernatural because they cannot be tested, or are they just another phase of reality cloaked in mystery from the human intellect? Is reality just what a 'majority' group of scientists, at this moment in time, tell us it is in their publishingís, their books, and on the Discovery channel.... or what we actually experience throughout the course of our own lives? Am I to give up the most profound and transformational experience of my life as a mere flight of fancy because it doesn't resonate as truth to you or some particle physicist at NASA headquarters? Should I stop helping, teaching, and healing others because the subtle energetic effects of yoga and shamanism on the human body are beyond the ability of science to measure? Should I denounce all the postive effects of my experience, return to being a alcoholic/stoner, and be like how I was taught to be in school: rational, linear, skeptical, and overly-focused on the material?

David Bohm once said something to the effect of:

"Science, in the past and present, has been much too limited in scope when it comes to assessing new and experimental theories regarding reality. One widely held assumption is that it is possible for any single theory, such as quantum theory, to be complete. Yet, nature may be infinite. Because it would not be possible for any theory to completely explain something that is infinite, it would be more appropriate that open scientific inquiry might be better served if researchers refrained from making this assumption."

Underlying everything, despite our experiences and beyond the concepts and theories of order and chaos, science and spirituality, belief or non-belief, is the unknown, uncertainty, the mystery. Making sense of the mystery is what we do as humans, through a whole spectrum of thoughts, theories, emotions, events, and realizations which collide, fuse, and effect with the others around us, our environment, our planet, and, perhaps, even beyond. There is no real certainty; the laws of the Universe can change at any time. Science is built upon the precept that what's worked in the past will always work in the future. But if the Universe is completely random and by chance, all that could change. Tomorrow science could be seen as obsolete, as my views and experiences. Yet, I am open to change, I am open to the mystery, and I am open to modifying my beliefs based upon my experience, both internally and externally, from a place of logic and intuition, science and spirit, matter and energy, the collective belief of the world and my own inner essence and dreams. The question is, are you?
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Realist
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:23 pm  Reply with quote

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First off Realist, I want to thank you for being here and giving me the opportunity to reflect on myself, see what I truly believe


Thank you. This forum has been useful for me to refine my ideas as well.

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and how I might communicate in a compassionate and neutral way.


I dont think this is humanly possible. No matter what is being debated, be it, spirituality, science, or chairs, everyone will be biased by earlier experiences.

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It's completely subjective and I've found my evidence in the synchronistic events of my own life and in the scholarly, scientific, and spiritual work of many others.


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I challenge you to show me evidence for your non-belief without being subjective.... and without proof that you've found external of yourself from others in the form of books, teachers, television, the media, or even a PBS special on what 'reality' is by someone in 'authority'.


What you're saying here is that I have to prove my point without being subjective, and without using any proof I have not discovered by myself while you are allowed to do both. It hardly seems fair. We should probably deside what the rules of engagement are before we continue this debate.

You continually rebuke by useage of the opinions of the scientific community. Does this mean that every one of the ideas you have stated is entirely of your own creation? Do you mean to tell me that you never had a teacher, or master, or whatever it's called in shamanism and yoga? Because if you did then you are actually using their opinions as your and I should be allowed to use my teachers and masters opinions as well.

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There are mavericks and renegade scientists that support my views, but they are not generally accepted as a majority in the world of experimentation.


There are renegades who think bigfoot is real, and yet they can't find him, just as their are renegades who claim they have found evidence of your teachings but cannot repeat the experiment. That is one of the most important parts of the scientific method, the ability for a different scientist to do the same experiment and come up with the same results. The majority of the scientific community isn't just saying "That's impossible" to many of your ideas. There have even been successful experments. However, they cannot get the same results again.

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And yet, you cannot dis-prove me either.


No, I can't. However, I can say that there are many theories with higher probabilities of being correct than yours is. Ones that are backed up with evidence.

Please don't think I'm being rude, but that is the largest flaw in many of the argument's i've seen. You have no evidence to back up your claims besides your own personal experiences. If you could find a way to give others the experiences you've had, and concistantly, then I would be looking at your arguments as a possible theory rather than an opinion.

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It's impossible for you to become me at the moment of my Transport Experience and to feel, think, and understand what I was shown.


But it should be possible for you to give someone else the same experience. If you can, then why haven't you? If you gave a scientist the feeling, then you would almost certianly be able to begin to work your experiences into a theory, rather than a personal account.

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Nor can you show me evidence or proof of your own atheism.


Atheism is a belief. It is therefore currently impossible to prove that I am an atheist. Just as it is also impossible to prove that I'm an american, or i'm a democrat, besides my asserting that that is what I believe.

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All you have is your ideas, concepts, and theories about reality that closely mirror what the current scientific society has deemed 'real' in early 21st century Earth.


All you have is your ideas, concepts, and theories that are backed up by a minute minority of the world and what they have deemed 'real.'

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Can you prove to me that nothing exists beyond the macro-realms of our most powerful telescopes or within the depths of the micro-dimensions beyond the quantum field? They cannot be tested scientifically and there's no evidence based upon our current technology that there's deeper levels....is that it? Does reality stop where are technology and theories end?


No, but can you prove to me that here is something there? Ultimately, we dont know, not even the best of scientists. How do you know what they don't, and how can you prove that you are right?

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Is reality just what a 'majority' group of scientists, at this moment in time, tell us it is in their publishings, their books, and on the Discovery channel


No, but that is reality as near as we can tell.

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Am I to give up the most profound and transformational experience of my life as a mere flight of fancy because it doesn't resonate as truth to some particle phyistists in NASA headquarters? Should I stop helping, teaching, and healing others because the subtle effects of yoga and shaminism are beyond the ability of science to measure? Should I denounce my experience and be like how I was taught to be in school: rational, linear, skeptical, and over-focused on the material?


No, but you should reconize what you're actually doing, rather than simply accepting what you're told by other people involved in yoga.

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Underlying everything, despite our experiences and beyond the concepts of order and chaos, belief or non-belief, is the unknown, uncertainty, the mystery. Making sense of the mystery is what we do as humans, through a whole spectrum of thoughts, theories, emotions, events, and realizations which collide, fuse, and effect with the others aroud us, our environment, our planet, and, perhaps, even beyond. There is no real certainty; the laws of the Universe can change at any time. Science is built upon the precept that what's worked in the past will always work in the future. But if the Universe is completely random and by chance, all that could change. I am open to change, I am open to the mystery, I am open to modifying my belief based upon my experience, internally and externally. Are you?


That's true. We don't know. However, scientists are still trying to find out. Science is trying to figure out the why of things. The ideas you've been giving out don't adress that issue. They basically say that things work a certian way because "X" makes them do it. I'm asking what is X, why does it effect things the way you claim, and why do you, and practically no one else, reconise X?

Yes, I have an open mind, but I require proof before I will change my ideas. You say that you can't prove your ideas. So what are we debating about?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:23 pm  Reply with quote

Aright, im a bit late to this debate, but i'll sum it up in a few sections (im mushing together what ive heard from both realist, thoth, and transport, so bear with me)

Science: Science is a tangible way to prove things on this earth, supernatural in one sense is what cannot be proven by this method/belief. However look at the flip side, in a sense, science is the new religion of our day, since we can attempt at and usually have tangible proof. However, an alien spaceship would seem like magic to an amazon tribe as well, but it would seem to use lke a huge technoligical advance, another perceptions thing, thats all the science is in a sense, another way to look at things.

Religious beliefs are the same way, the only way that you can classifly things is based on what you believe as a result of them. Athiesm is a denial of them all, whereas belief in a religion makes one classifly things based on them. Athiesm is unbelievable to those who practice religions, and religion is unbelievable to those who practice athiesm, but in the end atheism is a kind of religion like science is, for it uses a name to classify the beliefs, just like any other ida scope is. My point here is taht there's usually sides in disagreements/debates, and this is just another example of them, however, paradoxically, athiems would not exist without religion, and vice-versa, because the different beliefs spawned from the others, using them as a basis, thats how most beliefs come about, from the basis of others. Then again, many come about by self thought as well, so from both parts they do arise, but in the cases of religion, they usually do come from recorrolating many different beliefs and altering them. I know i'll get bashed for that statement probably, but thats the way that history (as we have observed through the materials given) has seemed to document things.

Personal beliefs are in the same category as the ones above, you can't dictate them without your own personal subjectivity as a part of them. Neutral information, "factual" is a good loose classifcation for the term, is also subjective, because scientific advancements over time can change and change qualifications.

I guess the bottom line that ive noticed in all the arguements is that you're all argueing perceptions, which is rather futile since they're all personally based. While that does kinf of kill the arguement, thats the trend i saw in the posts.
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Realist
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:23 pm  Reply with quote

Good job with the summary beest. You pretty much summed up everything both sides had to say. In the spirit of summation, I will summarise my ideas presently.

Each side of this debate is asking people to believe, behave, and think a certian way. Each side uses events as evidence to support their claims. I believe that there is much more evidence supporting my claim than supports the spiritist's claims. However, this is one of those issues that practically no one changes their mind on. I've only ever met one person who, after a debate, changes their views on a topic simmilar to this.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:46 pm  Reply with quote

That is one of the good things and bad things. In some instances, the ironclad will of your debatee is good, it helps you look on your part of the arguement and evaluate what you've said in contrast. However if the debatee is locked in a view that causes harm to their person as a result of some preconcieved notion, then its not really a good thing, since what you're trying to prove could help massively improve their life.

Its the latter case which is the one i think we hit here, but it wasn't so serious as i put it above, but basically hell, its all up to what you want to believe, and thats all that should ever really matter. Even if what others think is crazy, as long as you stick by it, thats the bottom line.
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transport22
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:23 pm  Reply with quote

Yes, I agree.... as long as expressing one's beliefs doesn't lead to harming another or the world at large. The following was something I wrote earlier in this post.

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The real task at hand, for the atheist~spiritualist~agnostic, is complete and total acceptance of the belief systems of ourselves and others.


With this kind of attitude in hand, and with diligent and practical application in our daily living, I think many of the problems of the world would dissipate and cease. The real test is not to take anything someone does personally, and to see their perception of you as 'their' perception, without resorting to a hasty retaliation that may perpetuate the conflict.
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Realist
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:08 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
The real task at hand, for the atheist~spiritualist~agnostic, is complete and total acceptance of the belief systems of ourselves and others.


Ah, but here's another point I disagree with you on. Oh, I agree that it would be a wonderful thing if we could actually make this happen, but I don't think that it is possible for humans to do it. Humans evolved from pack animals. We naturally break ourselfs down into groups in that way, i.e. families, towns, cities, countries, etc. Anyone who doesn't fit in with the pack is generally classified as an enemy, or at the very least a competetor. Differen't ideas, beliefs, and behaviors seperate you from the pack, and lead to that classification.

This is a general rule, and is by no means law. But take a look at the world and how it runs. The world has many groups of people, such as africians whites, hispanics, and other such groupings. Because each of these groups has more in common with eachother than with the other groups, they associate with eachother more often than they do with other ethnic groups. England, for example, is primarily comprised of white christians. They associate with Americans easily because they are the same ethnic group and have similar customs and language. They don't associate with the chinese as well because they look different, speak a different language, and have different customs.

Because of this, religous, athiest, and spiritual people drift into different packs, and are therefor going to be at odds with eachother. It is, (unfortuneately) human nature.
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transport22
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:10 pm  Reply with quote

What you say is the 'reality' of the situation and valid. And history demonstrates that this trend of fragmentation and separation have been with us for a long, long time, possibly since the beginning. Never the less, where would civilization be without the value of striving toward ideals? There have always been those throughout history who would strive to do the impossible and to make the impossible possible for the rest of us.

People may not believe that the human race can be so accepting of others, but that doesn't mean there's no value in making it a goal to work towards. Fundamentally, despite outward appearances, we're all the same at a biological level. And based upon the theory of evolution it would seem that humans are evolving from animal towards something of animal but more-than-animal? Yes? No?

The challenge is that people 'think' and 'feel' that itís not possible to be united as a race; they buy into the world reflected around them as reality. But it's only the reality of the present, not necessarily the reality of the future, and humorously one we created ourselves in the past. Yet, as a race, we've found the solutions to many of the problems and challenges that once plagued us. Arguably, the most powerful thing we've ever found in existence is the human imagination; our innate ability to create in 3-D physical reality subtle energetic thought-forms which have a non-physical origin. We energize our beliefs, thoughts, dreams, and imagination into form. Everything surrounding us, outside of nature and the elements, at one time existed as a subtle thought within a formless realm of being. With imagination we model the universe through birthing technology, art, religion, music, culture, science, language into the world.

It IS possible to cultivate a greater respect for all forms of life. We are creatures that can learn anything if the information and knowledge are taught to us. But someone must first be the pioneer to show us the way towards whatever we visualize within the mind. Each of us has the power and potential to be such an individual. And even if the people of Earth fall short of the ideal, would not more peaceful probabilities emerge as a result of our attempt? So I say, what can it hurt to make this a living meditation? How can it not serve us to honor and respect all life on Earth, even in spite of what the majority of the world tells us 'reality' must be?
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Realist
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:03 pm  Reply with quote

At no point did I claim that this wasn't an ideal to be strived toward. It would be a wonderful thing if we could have everyone just get along. But when, if ever, have we been able to make people stop fighting? The most successful civilation is clearly Rome, and they were able to keep the fighting to a minimum by irristable force. "Peace, through superior firepower," was their standard operating procedure.

Humans are not "Evolving towards" anything. There is no goal in mind, and no design we are trying to achieve. It is simply that the traits of those who reproduce the most will be expressed in their offspring.

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The challenge is that people 'think' and 'feel' that itís not possible to be united as a race; they buy into the world reflected around them as reality.


What is reality, if not the world people can see, taste, smell and touch? That is our way of interpreting reality.

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It IS possible to cultivate a greater respect for all forms of life.


Yes, and we are working towards it. I hope we succeed.

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How can it not serve us to honor and respect all life on Earth, even in spite of what the majority of the world tells us 'reality' must be?


No one is telling you that this is the way reality must be. It is there for you to see if you simply open your eyes. At no point have humans ever managed to attain the ideal you preach. At no point have humans ever been able to simply put aside their differences and love eachother. Turn on the news. Any channel. Wait for fifteen minutes and you will see another atrocity commited by the very humans you think can simply put aside their differences and act as a whole.

If you deny the news, because they are simply another set of people telling you how reality is, go to Iraq, where bombers kill the people they claim to be fighting for. Go to Iran, where women are shot because they showed their faces. Go to China, where peaceful demonstraitors have been mowed down in the hundreds. Go to Africa, where ethnic cleansing has killed millions, simply because they didn't belong to the same tribe.

Look at reality, and tell me again that humans can live together in peace.
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transport22
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:16 pm  Reply with quote

Yes, I understand that the odds are way against anything I preach and teach. The world is fucked up, chaotic, and seemingly coming apart at the seams. And I know that the kind of global transformation I speak of is laughable, idealistic, and childish to many people, including myself before my Transport Experience. Since then I've lost nearly all my old 'friends', experienced my father's passing away, found the woman of my dreams, and become a spiritual teacher. And in the process I've discovered more people like myself than I ever imagined possible; people moving along life with a sense of purpose based upon an experience beyond what the 'reality' of media, government, education, science, or technology could explain.

Many of these people have found this experience through what I call the 'Technology of the Ancients'; the practical and effective techniques of yoga, creative visualization, fasting & purification, ritual & ceremony, journaling, intention, prayer, meditation, pranayama, entheogens, focus, discipline, concentration, tantric practices~sacred sexuality, organic edibles from an unpolluted food source, rhythmic drumming, dance, artistic expression, travel and exposure to indigenous cultures, mantra, cyclical living, and compassionate communication with the living library of Earth.

Technology because if you do A B C & D you get E. All it really takes is an objective attitude and a willingness to experience something new from a genuine teacher or guide. Much like the scientific method. Unfortunately we are so far removed from our ancestors and the true beginnings of our bloodlines that we don't even know these techniques exist. So we replace the yearning for the 'mystery' by giving our power away to our country, a religion, a bull shit 9-5 job, or, even worse, a mindless existence sitting in front of the television day-in and day-out and living vicariously through someone else's creativity and imagination. My teachings have led me and continue to lead me, unquestionably and without a doubt, upon a path of service for humankind, one of pure adventure where I can make a difference.

And so I will make a difference and shift probabilities towards integration, peace, and wholeness, both individually and en masse. I'll create the vision that allows me to energize and manifest into my reality a new way of living sustainably with Earth and others, and then I'll share that way of life with all that wish the wisdom. Although I'm in the early and unpolished stages of my new development events are beginning to fall into place. Okinawa in Sept., moving to Hawaii at the end of '04, and then a trip into the Amazon jungle to work with the Shipibo tribe late spring of '05. I'm formulating and writing my first book, studying the healing arts, and intend to travel the world over teaching workshops about the 'Universal Transport' and the technology of the ancients.

The world's fucked up right now, but I'll not be an armchair philosopher or an incessant whiner about how 'human nature' is inherantly flawed. Nor will I say 'that's the way it is', pop open another beer to numb the pain, and check out porn to feel alive. I don't need to. I am more alive, more vibrant, more grounded, and more healthy than at any other point of my life, and probably 98% more than the popluation of the world over. And if I'm crazy, so be it! Life's one hell of an adventure if you go for your dreams and rise to the challenges of life.

The Realist Test

Fast for 3 days and 3 nights on pure vegetable and fruit juices and journal your experiences. Create and work with an intention that means something deeply to you. Have a shamanic experience with a plant medicine and allow it to guide you and teach you about healing and wholeness. Then begin to meditate and do yoga (especially Kundalini Yoga) for the next month at least twice a week. During that time read: "Last Hours of the Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann, "Messages from Water" by Emoto, "Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot, and "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn...in that order for a rational, scientific, and spiritual view of reality. Have gratitude for your friends and family, the things you own, the food you eat and the water you drink. Spend one weekend out in nature in silence without any agendas; exploring the land, the insects, the plants, the sunsets, the stars, the elements, and your relationship to it all.

If you do these things, your life will change in ways you can't explain with proof or evidence, only based upon the transformation happening within. And if you need help or explanation with any of those techniques, ask...it's my job. And I encourage you to give me a similar test if you have one.
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Realist
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:35 pm  Reply with quote

I have no real problem with the way you wish to live your life, mainly because you aren't hurting anyone and you don't wish harm on anyone. However, I still believe the premise you're basing it on is flawed. Spirituality works because you believe it will work. Anyone who tries your program must believe something will happen for them or nothing will.

I also don't know what you mean by your transport experience. Can you explain it for me?

So go off and do work you believe is important in the Amazon and around the world. I wish you mixed success; success convincing people to be peaceful, but failure with coverting them to your belief system. I wish this because it is not my belief system, and that means you are not a part of my pack.

Ultimately our disagreement boils down to the fact that I don't believe that there is any such thing as a spiritual existance. All of the things you suggest in your test are ways of infulencing your body and brain chemistry, and have been documented as such. You say it will lead you to realising something spiritual. I say it will train your mind into giving itself signals. A slight difference in intrepration, really.
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