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thoth87
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:37 pm  Reply with quote

i'd keep pumping iron, on account of i'm working on a 400 pound press (no joke) and im only up to 240 so far. i'm a little over half way there!
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Datura
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:51 pm  Reply with quote

nightbeest77 wrote:
aright, first off, evolution is a theory in and of itself, so this entire discussion is flawed!


Yeah, so are like, the existence of cars, but like, yeah, they're flawed too.

If you're a stoopidhead extreme Descartes sceptic, then everything is a flawed theory.

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secondly, theres a damn lot of people who are slaves to the media, and hopelessly and blindly believe them and everything they say/do. perhaps if we turned off the !@#$!@$#!@$!$#@!$@#$@!$#ing tv set and looked for ourselves whats happening wed be better off.


Why do you think people would treat real life with respect, intelligence and compassion if they were "more exposed" to it? They can barely handle what they have to now.

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sixthly - what you said about the child is exactly what i meant! let them decide for themselves what to believe instead of sending them to school and making them learn what the masses believe! unless he wanted to go with the masses, in which case let him! its his choice dammit, so let him make it!


I was speaking metaphorically. A real child is not intelligent, not advanced enough to make up its own mind. That's why they are children. They don't *have* a choice.

As for "What the masses believe", who are you to say what the masses do and don't believe? Yes, a child should be given alternative education on top of their regular one so they can understand the myriad of discourses that go into something, instead of just the homogenised Western consensus, but at the same time should not be deprived of that consensus as a future choice of safety and stability, or such to be rejected.

You sound like the stupid ranting socialists at campus. Take a logic pill and think about what you say for a minute.

Oh, and home schooling breeds spoiled psychos. I have many friends who will testify to this (they work in the industry).
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thoth87
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:18 pm  Reply with quote

of home schooling?

Logic Pills?

did i miss something?
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Datura
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:14 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
sixthly - what you said about the child is exactly what i meant! let them decide for themselves what to believe instead of sending them to school and making them learn what the masses believe! unless he wanted to go with the masses, in which case let him! its his choice dammit, so let him make it!


Sounded like many Home-schoolers I've heard.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:13 am  Reply with quote

no, im not an extreme descartes sceptic, however i acknowlede that there are other possibilies and theories other than evolution. just the way i am, maybe you should open up?

and i think they would treat real life with respect because of the will to survive. we would do what we have to to survive, even if it is extreme by some standards.

how do we know children arent intelligent when newborn? we have no real ground of what they are capable of, we just assume that their gurgles are nonsense and crying simply for material desires that will comfort them. what if there is more behind it? hmm? what then?

and when i say what the masses believe, i mean popular theories, jesus are you so blind you cant tell what most people believe? are you that devoid of insight and intelligence? think, THINK! and im very well qualified because i really dont believe one thing speicifically, more of a concoction of all things that ive come across, and hopefully all theories in existance.

and you sound like someone who simply cant open up their mind to other possibilities! remember, in the end the only one limiting what you do is yourself. (and i guess you'll figure some way to beat this down too)

and take your own damn logic pill, or better yet some painkillers ;P

and how do you know it breeds spoiled psychos, i know quite a few people who are home schooled and they turned out fine. maybe you should do more research. i know that it does turn out some, but dont mix all bad apples in with all good ones. that seems to be your problem recently, lumping all the bad and only focusing on it, look on the bright side of it for once! let the glass be half full!
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thoth87
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:19 pm  Reply with quote

i'd also like to note that Public School throws out it's own share of psycos, and so do catholic schools, and boarding schools, and military academies...

yup
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:50 pm  Reply with quote

of course!!!! after all what holds true for one institution is kinda the same for most others (not all)
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thoth87
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 10:08 pm  Reply with quote

yea...just pointing out the obvious... i'm good at that.

in other news, my High School Football team (which really isn't that great) won tonight by three touch downs... sweetness
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 10:54 am  Reply with quote

well congrats on the win. always nice to have em once in a a while.

and dont forget private schools! you forgot private schools, i mean i go to one and look what im doing now...case and point!
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Datura
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:00 am  Reply with quote

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no, im not an extreme descartes sceptic, however i acknowlede that there are other possibilies and theories other than evolution. just the way i am, maybe you should open up?


Well the way I am is kind of really logical and atheistic, so, what's the alternatives to evolution you're talking about that don't involve metaphysical universal powers, master plans and concious deities?

Seriously, if you have one, I would *love* to hear it...

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and i think they would treat real life with respect because of the will to survive. we would do what we have to to survive, even if it is extreme by some standards.


People don't treat "real life" with respect now. We have lost the will to survive because we don't need to. We change our environment to create cushy coccoons so we don't have to "survive". We can just indulge.

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how do we know children arent intelligent when newborn? we have no real ground of what they are capable of, we just assume that their gurgles are nonsense and crying simply for material desires that will comfort them. what if there is more behind it? hmm? what then?


What if what? Frankly, I'm all for abortion and capital punishment. What I'm not for is every bratty thing who has been raised by incompetent parents being treated as an equal member of society.

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and when i say what the masses believe, i mean popular theories, jesus are you so blind you cant tell what most people believe? are you that devoid of insight and intelligence? think, THINK! and im very well qualified because i really dont believe one thing speicifically, more of a concoction of all things that ive come across, and hopefully all theories in existance.


Okay.... so, you're supposedly "very well qualified" because you think that being a good little postmodern bunny is better than everyone else? How exactly? Since when does someone's beliefs make them any more special than the next? And frankly, the idea that you can believe the new metaideology to solve all boundaries of human thought is laughable. Ever institution that "influences what the masses believe" think they have the very same thing. Why are you any more special? Have you ever even thought about how you think about these things?

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and you sound like someone who simply cant open up their mind to other possibilities! remember, in the end the only one limiting what you do is yourself. (and i guess you'll figure some way to beat this down too)


No my dear. I'm simply someone who understands that there are some things worth wasting energy on in this universe, and some things that aren't. We aren't gods. We are not omnipotent. The ability to know, be, and exist as all things at once is beyond our grasp, thanks to our very existence. If you call logic beating something down, then fine. That's your cookie. Chow it down and keep telling yourself that.

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and take your own damn logic pill, or better yet some painkillers ;P


Ohhhh OMG!!! You are teh flameKING!... Im going to tell my mummy on you.

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and how do you know it breeds spoiled psychos, i know quite a few people who are home schooled and they turned out fine. maybe you should do more research. i know that it does turn out some, but dont mix all bad apples in with all good ones. that seems to be your problem recently, lumping all the bad and only focusing on it, look on the bright side of it for once! let the glass be half full!


1) I worked in a Home-schooling centre where we got to deal with every inbred psycho parent and child by phone and face to face. Perhaps the darlings you met were the exceptions, or perhaps you're lying. Who can tell. The only really nice client I met was a Muslim woman who had migrated here and was doing her studies via correspondance because, of course, cultural reasons (like a husband, who was an absolute pain in the ass to deal with) prevented her from studying in even a normal night-school situation. I was her monitor because she couldn't talk or even be in a room with another man, even when her husband was there. I've had everything from Bretheran brats to cotton-wool babies to socialist children who, frankly, were some of the worst. Don't even start about research to me honey.

2) Maybe you should understand that to totally exist and be as open as you are supposing you are requires the ability to accept the negative as well as the positive. So accept that actually the glass exists and yet the non-existence is what makes it work, and that the water does not exist as water but as something else all together, depending on what you do with it. That it is neither half-full nor half-empty but both and neither at the same time. You know, real openmindedness.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:16 am  Reply with quote

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Seriously, if you have one, I would *love* to hear it...


i already told you, anything that might come to mind that could happen.

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People don't treat "real life" with respect now. We have lost the will to survive because we don't need to. We change our environment to create cushy coccoons so we don't have to "survive". We can just indulge.


so youve met every human on the planet and determined this have you?

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What if what? Frankly, I'm all for abortion and capital punishment. What I'm not for is every bratty thing who has been raised by incompetent parents being treated as an equal member of society.


while he may be a bratty thing, he can still be reeducated. dont go and kill people off just because they seem lesser than you. after all who are you to choose who lives and dies?

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Okay.... so, you're supposedly "very well qualified" because you think that being a good little postmodern bunny is better than everyone else? How exactly? Since when does someone's beliefs make them any more special than the next? And frankly, the idea that you can believe the new metaideology to solve all boundaries of human thought is laughable. Ever institution that "influences what the masses believe" think they have the very same thing. Why are you any more special? Have you ever even thought about how you think about these things?


i am special/well qualified in a sense because i look at all sides of the equation before trying to figure it out. ive looked at your side of the equation and determined that compared to other ways of life that it is closed minded and leads to others suffering, and is a dreary pessimistic existance. i chose to acknowledge that it is one of the paths you can take, and chose not to take it. and yes i have thought about these things, but since youre no more or less special or qualified than me, why dont you think about it? hmmm? once again what right do you have to make these accusations?


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No my dear. I'm simply someone who understands that there are some things worth wasting energy on in this universe, and some things that aren't. We aren't gods. We are not omnipotent. The ability to know, be, and exist as all things at once is beyond our grasp, thanks to our very existence. If you call logic beating something down, then fine. That's your cookie. Chow it down and keep telling yourself that.


we arent gods or omnipotent, in that you are correct. however logic itself is based on theories as well. not everything necessarrily has to make sense. perhaps one day logic will be shown with all of its flaws since its based on a theoretical system. after all anything is possible. *happily munches on cookie* and perhaps you could name some things that arent worth wasting energy on? i myself dont believe that there is a single thing that isnt worth it.

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1) I worked in a Home-schooling centre where we got to deal with every inbred psycho parent and child by phone and face to face. Perhaps the darlings you met were the exceptions, or perhaps you're lying. Who can tell. The only really nice client I met was a Muslim woman who had migrated here and was doing her studies via correspondance because, of course, cultural reasons (like a husband, who was an absolute pain in the ass to deal with) prevented her from studying in even a normal night-school situation. I was her monitor because she couldn't talk or even be in a room with another man, even when her husband was there. I've had everything from Bretheran brats to cotton-wool babies to socialist children who, frankly, were some of the worst. Don't even start about research to me honey.


case and point. you just admitted what you said was bullshit. you claimed that all the people it turns out are psychos. you just said you knew someone who wasnt. have you even thought about that? my point is that you cant blame the system on the bad apples alone. always remember the good apples as well.

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2) Maybe you should understand that to totally exist and be as open as you are supposing you are requires the ability to accept the negative as well as the positive. So accept that actually the glass exists and yet the non-existence is what makes it work, and that the water does not exist as water but as something else all together, depending on what you do with it. That it is neither half-full nor half-empty but both and neither at the same time. You know, real openmindedness.


until you can prove to me that the glass doesnt exist in this frame of existance, i will continue to say it is half full. you can continue to say that there is no fucking glass all you want. and who said it was water? it could be milk, tea, soda, beer, wine, and a whole host of other things. and i myself use this expression because it is the most convenient to portray the difference in our schemes of beliefs. i already know that we cant prove it exists either way, however if you dont believe you ever can prove it, you might as well just give up now instead of at least trying.

and note that all i have said is a compilation of all that i have taken in and chosen to believe accordingly, mixing in my own scheme of life as a combination. youve got to take the path youve got to take, and i accept that. but i myself also realize that the path has the ability to change.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:14 pm  Reply with quote

and in this corner...

well. that was a rather interesting trade-off...so whilst you folks are going at it, i'll just watch...and poke as many holes in both sides as i can.

Datura, what kind of establishment did you work at, cuase i'd like to know before i make an ass of myself.

and Beest... well qualified? erm, no. qualification is written proof that says you know what you're talking about...and is normally issued by poeple who are also 'qualified', but very rarely are. qualification is a grade. qualification, is bullshit.

there.
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Datura
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:43 pm  Reply with quote

Thoth: I worked in a distance-ed organisation in my capital city. In Australia, "Home Schooling" comes under "Distance Ed" because as much as whatever parent may wish to teach their children, the children still have to take the same sorts of tests as everyone else, so the ones that could make it came into the school whenever they had to be tested. And yes, I was part of the Home-School "liasons" area, so perhaps I had a certain kind of exposure. But I can assure you, I'd had enough after 5 months, so I made up some excuse about studies and got out of their as fast as I could. Dealing with them was so stressful I wasn't sleep properly and kept on getting sick from my immune system running down.

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so youve met every human on the planet and determined this have you?


Well, you're making generalisation about everyone on the planet, so why can't I?

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after all who are you to choose who lives and dies?


A human citizen of a country and a wider species-society that has every right to judge a human being by its actions in the system as much as the next person. Who are you to think you can escape that?

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i am special/well qualified in a sense because i look at all sides of the equation before trying to figure it out. ive looked at your side of the equation and determined that compared to other ways of life that it is closed minded and leads to others suffering, and is a dreary pessimistic existance.


So you look at all sides of the equation, except the ones you think are negative. Uh huh. Right.

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why dont you think about it? hmmm? once again what right do you have to make these accusations?


See above. People dismiss things too quickly because they make them feel "bad" without understanding why they do and why we always need two sides of the coin to exist in the way we do.

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and perhaps you could name some things that arent worth wasting energy on? i myself dont believe that there is a single thing that isnt worth it.


Rape. Is the consequences of you raping someone or being raped worth wasting the energy on the experience?

Hmmm?

Torture. Is it worth inflicting the pain on someone just to see what it feels like? Are the consequences of your own trained conscience and the judicial system worth the energy? Hmmmmm?

What about watching a TV show you don't like? Are you going to set up 400 24 hour Tevo recorders so you can watch every show just to experience them all?

You know, there is a lovely little disfuncting known as OCDC...

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you just said you knew someone who wasnt.


She wasn't a child, and was a woman trying to make the best of her situation. I think a lot of the time I was one of the only people she was allowed to talk to. Children in the system are different.

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and i myself use this expression because it is the most convenient to portray the difference in our schemes of beliefs.


Yes it's lovely and *convenient* and *simple* and paired down so we can divide people in to category a and b and not worry about anything else and dismiss the ones we don't like. Of *course* :)

Heh, "frame of existence". Cute. Very nice. What about the people who say "No glass of mine would ever not be filled to the top. BARTENDER!?"? Or the ones who say "I prefer water-bubblers so you are not limiting the spirit of the water in the cage of the glass"?
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:33 pm  Reply with quote

qualification is bullshit, you're right, but it was the only word i could think of at the time.

and im the same kind of person you are to decide who lives and doesnt.

no, ive looked at the equations, and decided which ones i follow. just doesnt happen to be your lonley pessimistic existance where it all goes to shit and we all burn!

but remember, when i say experiences i mean positive ones. forgive me for not clarifying something that should be blatantly clear to you after reading all my posts. your logic should have been able to pull that out, datura. inferred meanings and habitual commentary.

and while children may be different from adults, they all wind up becoming them in the end, correct?

and convenient it is, unless you have a better comparison up your sleeve and would be so kind as to enlighten me to it.

and this frame of existance is all we have right now, until we can move beyond it. and of course there are people like that, but you forget that eventually the person at the bar will not be able to hail the bartender and their glass will be half full, and you might not always be able to get water bubblers, correct? remember that probability and possiblity are two different things. much like how i have accepted that my views of life are possible but not probable. i can still believe them, and if you dont like it, sit on it.
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Datura
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:56 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
just doesnt happen to be your lonley pessimistic existance where it all goes to shit and we all burn!


When exactly was it decided I was saying we're all going to "burn"? Can someone please point this out to me? Specific quotes instead of ranting interpretations please.

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but remember, when i say experiences i mean positive ones. forgive me for not clarifying something that should be blatantly clear to you after reading all my posts. your logic should have been able to pull that out, datura. inferred meanings and habitual commentary.


Now now. You infer positive experiences but who says the ones I brought up aren't positive for those who commit them (emphasis on "commit" here)? Logicometre says: stop thinking one sidedly. Open your mind.

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and this frame of existance is all we have right now, until we can move beyond it. and of course there are people like that, but you forget that eventually the person at the bar will not be able to hail the bartender and their glass will be half full, and you might not always be able to get water bubblers, correct? remember that probability and possiblity are two different things. much like how i have accepted that my views of life are possible but not probable. i can still believe them, and if you dont like it, sit on it.


If you had even bothered to think about it, I was referring to the fact that the full/empty metaphor once again limits people to two stereotypes and closes down the myriad of options. I interpreted your comment about "Frame of existence" in the form of the two stereotyping facets presented by the question, not the frame of existence of the generalisation you seem to be making about the entire human condition.
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