[thoth87]

this simple fact is pushed upon every child that comes from the womb of any 'civilized' mother. On this planet earth, there has been no creature to withstand our encroachment, slavery, and tests. we build massive structures, manipulate the world to suit our needs, and even slaughter others of our own race simply because one side has something the other side wants.

we wield supreme power. Destructive weapons capable of obliterating large cities, small arms used to kill animals (and each other) and even mundane things such as refrigerators, televisions and computers.

this power is often wielded with reckless abandon, and the simple amenities of home make us lazy and more slugish. it is only a matter of time before we destroy ourselves, or become so lazy as to create artifical servants, who eventually may take our knowledge and use it to become the superiors, the gods.

Is this truly evolution? we have so much done for us, that our bodies continually weaken whilst our minds grow strong. some of us, however, don't even grow more intelegent. they completely epitomize the worst our race has to offer: weak and stupid. soon, we will become even more intelegent, but our bodies will weaken so much as to make us rely on another form of movement, such as mechanical drones. and even with this new intelegence, we have no wisdom to temper it with. no history book to look back to and see "oh, maybe it won't be such a good idea to send that rocket to the sun".

if we don't stop and think now, we will find ourselves on a crash-course with oblivion.

thoughts?

[Cam]

From my perspective, it seems from a phenomenal point of view everything you've said about mankind, has been and possibly will come to fruition.

However, what needs to happen will happen. And if thats what needs to happen so be it. These have been my concerns for all sentient beings as well.

And they still are, but to a much lesser degree than in my past.
I've actually come to a point in life where I'm beginning to have less of an attachment to how things look. As long as we all get what we need in a spiritual since. Things will happen when and how they are supposed to happen dispite our desires to see things go the way we "THINK" they should go.

No "ONE" has all the answers...

[thoth87]

so you believe in destiny? that's interesting. i personally believe that we are all destined to end up somewhere, but how we get there, what we do along the way and what time we arive is completely up to ourselves.

take schoolwork as an example. you can choose not to study and possibly fail the test, or to study and perhaps still fail, but with a higher chance of passing. you are destined to end up in the afterlife eventually, but weather you fail or pass only decides weather or not your stay on earth will be a plesant one.

i think we all need to relax, take it easy. i think that this world leads to another where you recieve your just due, and so i think that working as hard as we possibly can for a few pieces of green paper is a bunch of crap. the current system in which we live makes so many people's lives horrible, and so few (the ones that don't deserve it, mostly) have the greatest lives imaginable. riches are pointless, you can't take them with you. technology is hurting more than helping at this point, because no one knows what they are doing. know wisdom behind the knowledge.

take a Shaolin fighting monk, for example. they spend years and years to learn the secrets of the fighting arts, and to learn all of the reasons they should not be used, if possible. they know that consequences will be sore if they use their abilities idly. wisdom behind the knowledge.

now take a weapon of mass destruction, the first ever made. the people who made it worked on it for a few months, then a new crew came in, and they swapped. when it was finallymade, no one person actually knew why it should not be used or what would happen if it did. no wisdom behind the knowledge.

[athênê]

The choice is already made. Fate exists; every cause results in an effect results in a cause results in an effect....

All particles travelling out from a single source (i.e., Big Bang) possess energy/mass and follow a calculable path at a computable speed. (Or at least they can be assigned "probable" paths and speeds.)

Every thought, every word, every action results in a consequence. All human suffering is caused by something that has preceded it. The only way you can break free of this suffering is by recognizing that it's a never ending cycle of cause and effect; to find enlightenment, you have to release yourself from the karmic cycle altogether.

Fate and destiny. Or in philosophical terms, determinism.
Choice and decisionmaking. Free-will.

Pick a door, any door; you have the ability to make a decision, but that decision has been made based on past circumstances, past alignments of molecules, past causes. Your decision is already made; the real question is what is the purpose of making that decision? We know how, what, where, and who. The key is to figure out WHY.

[Cam]

Morpheus...
Once again well said.

I never said I believe in Destiny thoth87. Fate is the word I use.

When I hear the word destiny, my mind's eye perceives it as being something very concrete. Without flexibility, or w/out flowing possibilities. Destiny would be like a person's story. Pre-written so you could go to page 138 in the book to see the exact make, model and color a person's gonna choose when they buy their first car at the age of 23. Or on 5/23/03 at the exact time of 8:30pm I'll take 2 steps to the left and be shit on by some bird that's supposed to fly past. Ya know?

But FATE!!!

I personally went into a state of depression for 3 weeks when I became
"enlightened" to the fact that I absolutely had no control up to that point in my life. And never will. It was all a lie. Kinda like when NEO throws up on the NEB after Morpheus shows him the coppertop.

But it was my uncle who delivered the message to me. And I knew in my heart it was the truth. And I found myself asking the same question NEO asked. "I can't go back can I?" And Morpheus was right, once you know, you can't go back. It's impossible whether you'd like to or not. You totally see things differently. But I really didn't want to go back. It's just very demoralizing at first to have your reality come crashing down all at once.

Yes, my fate is determined. My path is my path. Your path is your path.
That's already been set. But there's a difference between knowing the path and walking it. Let's not confuse our spiritual path's with what we "choose" to experience in the physical realm. I know when I'm choosing an act or have a thought that is not in line with my spiritual path.
But my choices are governed by the Universal/Spiritual law of Karma that looks to balance the energy of the cosmos. So whether I choose to make a left or a right turn out of the Dealer car lot when I buy that car, I will inevitably experience and learn exactly what was meant for me in this lifetime. If I make choice A, but choice B was more of a direct choice in terms of my spiritual path... The universe adjusts accordingly.

So physically speaking, we do have choice on how our lessons look.
Because it's an illusion. Choice A only looks different from Choice B.
But spiritually, the things we need to learn will be learned.

Like they say, "How do you want your ass whippin?"
Regardless of which way you prefer to get your ass whipped...
Your ass will be whipped.

[nightbeest77]

you say that you dont believe in destiny, however fate is, by definition, the same thing. both are considered predetermination by something that controls the paths of life. some people say that things are determined because they then arent responsible for their actions, this may or may not be true.

However, i also believe that once one becomes enlightened, one has the ability to become the one who alters the paths of fate and/or destiny. Both sound concrete to me, however, not as concrete to the select few who understand how the program works. when one can, one can stop bullets in mid-air, though that skill is very far down the line.

and always remember, that if your ass does start to get whipped, then primal instincts kick in, and you go on a mindless rush of adrenaline to attack and incapacitate all those who are trying to whoop your ass. at least, thats how it happens with me (and has happened on only 2 occasions, each at different places)

And from the way that you talk, thoth, you sound somewhat like Jack Kevorkian (sp?). Yes, there are always the bad apples in the barrel, however thats all that people ever focus on. Raving pessimism is a bad idea, you know. and after all, there are so many better and more important things out there as well that one can focus on.

Granted, the bad apples are incredibly bad, and they are the prime example of what NOT to do, however one has to realize that in the long run they have the same ability and chance as the rest of us, and as a result, one cant look down on them, because eventually then could be the ones who look down on us.

Things are never as they seem, it is said, and this is a prime example of it.

[Cam]

I just looked up the words fate and destiny.
And by definition they are the same concept.

So my outlook on the two words were incorrect.

But I do want to stress that everything I may talk about in these forums will only be on subject matter that I have direct experience of in my life.
Intellectually many things may sound logical or concrete to me, but I don't know for sure if I've never fully experienced them up to this point, in this particular lifetime.

For example, there is a hell of a lot I can relate to(spiritually) in the first Matrix from direct experience.

Now Reloaded is a different story. I can intellectually conceive many of the concepts it brings up. And my intuition tells me a lot of it has merit and in fact probably reflects truth. And although it all fascinates me, and excites me, the majority of it I can't experiencially relate to. So for now I'll just enjoy it for it's intellectual stimulation. But I can't take it as truth.
YET! :)

To me, fate exists. But only in spiritual terms.
And what I mean by that is, there is only one fate, because there is only one. We can call it the SOURCE. Our fate is to come from a state of consciouness that perceives ourselves being seperate from the SOURCE to one which realizes we are part of the SOURCE. In other words we are the SOURCE. Through "lessons'' learned we broaden/awaken our awareness more and more(expand our consciousness). It is said we gain wisdom as to what's really going on. Now how these lessons look in the physical is totally what free will is all about (To me at least)! We can choose how it all looks.

Two people can learn the exact same spiritual lessons in a lifetime (fate)
but physically speaking their experiences will be perceived as being totally different.

So from my level of awareness, we do have choice in this physical realm to choose(within the rules of phenomena) how our "lessons" look.

But from a Spiritual perspective there is no choice because all there is IS.....
The use of language has reached it's limits now so I have to stop here. :)


Thoughts anyone

[nightbeest77]

thats part of what i believe, at least. all that is is, and its a lot easier and less confusing (yes, im aware of the redundancy of stating both). but is it really that easy to accept?

However, if all that is is, then what about the things that are not? are they never to be discovered? never to be determined? never to be realized? if all that is is, then there is nothing new that can come about, and that is the one flaw with that belief.

and also, what of the unexplicable? there are so many things that are not understood, and were not meant to be understood, and as a result, it seems as though there must be something else sometimes.

Its a hard world sometimes, but in the end i guess theres no one right answer.

[the "ist"]

there are obviously disagreements on the definitions of words but then it all comes down to interperetation...to use a word is not to understand a word...and to understand a word becomes almost useless in conversation...as person A has a different definition of that word and uses others to explain what it means to them as apposed to what it does to you. We could all get very technical...but what point would that ultimately have.
As said in other threads one can only really contemplate and understand in one's own mind as thinking as apposed to explaining and communicating happens in the mind or spiritual world and cannot completely transcend into another.
Do any of you sometimes decide to shut your eyes.....not to be ignorant, but simply just to rest....to absorb all you know and accept it without further debate or reason??
What exactly depends on whether destiny/fate exist or not? Regardless, we continue to make decisions. You can never not make decisions.....Standing at an intesection....u can choose to move forward...left, right, turn around...or remain where you are....but whateva happens you have made a decision..... If destiny/fate exists or doesnt exist...we still make decisions in order to reach that predetermined fate or whatever.
The problem arises when we know for sure...or if we are told that either r both exist...that is what influences our decisions.....

[nightbeest77]

i do, and have to on occasions. like it says at the bottom: opinions subject to change without notice. and mine are. i have been through a lifer altering experience as a young boy, and because of it i learned how people should act. and also that sometimes they should (pardon the language) shut the *huck* up and listen.

its one of the hardest things for people to do, i mean its very rare that anyone is willing to put aside what they think and just listen to someone else. i really do wish more people would do that sometimes.

another problem is that nobody is willing to listen in general. if people were willing to just listen, even if they were thinking negative stuff the whole time, just listen. so many people love to talk about themselves, but so few are willing to listen.

[Purpose]

Sometimes i have my own definitions for words that are not the same but not to far of the normal meaning. These are mine. Don't tell me i'm wrong because it's just what i beleive.

Fate: as people have stated, it is the fact that you think you have the choice of choosing 1 of 50 doors but really you are really going to choose door number 12, the choice has already been made - so basically everything in your life (choices) have already been determined although you think you make decisions. I personally don't beleive in fate.

Purpose/destiny : to have a purpose or a destiny in my mind is that in your life you live you will have a purpose that you will fullfill no matter what you do. You have choices and actually pick them at the time they come unlike fate, but in the end you will always end up doing something you were destined to do even if your choices are different another time round. (this is assuming you could live your life and then go back and relive it from the start)

[nightbeest77]

Purpose, those are quit possibly the best definitions for both of those that i have ever heard. i agree with you definitely on every one of those points.

[thoth87]

i just ran through this thread (and an old one it is) and i realized a few things:

1: i don't believe in fate, or destiny (opinions subject to change without notice, after all).
2: i can agree with Cam's views slightly (although not completely)
3: Beest, you called me a raving pessimist!

now, this third thing, it disturbs me. i look at my original post and realize that yes, it's pessimistic, but it's also the MOST PESSIMISTIC thing i have ever let issue from my being. wow, i was harsh...

and the fourth thing i have realized...

that i agree completely with my first post and partially with my second.

hmm...

[The Er]

I also agree with Purpose with his explanation of purpose, and how all thigns will achieve a certain predetermined purpose within there time span, although the other events of it's existance may change.

[nightbeest77]

in my own horrible and easily attacked opinion, we will continue to do exactly what we have been doing, many people will concentrate on the mental aspect, and many will concentrate on the physical aspect. The rest will do a bit of both, fairly well either way.