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Sky
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:12 am  Reply with quote

thoth87 wrote:
I don't think that fear and love are opposite at all. namely because one can be afraid and still love/be loved at the same instant.


being afraid/scared is completly different to fear, fear isnt an emotion like being scared.....if you think hate is the opposite of love then that doesnt work either, because you can hate someone and still be loved.

As i always say, (sometimes!! lol) we live in a world goverened by fate, and EVERYTHING is an illusion, even our own appearances, and even choice, choice is the biggest illusion.

in the last matrix film when smith goes to the oracle to take her over, he say something like, if you knew i was coming to get you you could have escaped etc, but she doesnt because she knows she ultimately has no choice, and that her choice in doing so was an illusion, if she saw him coming to get her this is her EXACT future, if she ran away that she would have seen that and done that instead, it was the ultimate design for her life, how can something be your future if you dont do it..... do you understand where im coming from???

also, that big essay thing, sorry i didnt read it, im a bit tired so you may have mentioned this in that.......

so in answer to thoths question, choice is the illusion, so is the system, so is the matrix, it all is....
(in my opinion)

all we have to do is find where the point when illusion becomes reality.
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KRM
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:24 pm  Reply with quote

thoth87 wrote:
I don't think that fear and love are opposite at all. namely because one can be afraid and still love/be loved at the same instant.

i didn't say they couldn't co-exist...they have to for the world of relativity to exist ie. how would u know love if u never knew it's opposite?

but in their purest form they r polarities
love is expanding, fear is contracting

u can still have 80% love within u and 20% fear...it's like a see-saw
one gives u freedom, the other traps u with an illusion u create.
Quote:
and as for the master plan, why let everyone choose if they are going to end up in the same place anyway?

i believe there r 2 reasons:
1. I didn't say u'd get there as fast as u would if u were consciously aiming for "oneness"...i just said u'd get there eventually.
You'll still have to get to a certain level to find the path...the way is a state of being, not something that will happen whether u like it or not. So u still have to get there yourself and ultimately u will, because it's all your soul wants to do.
So if u'r sleepwalking thru life, it'd be like taking a journey and just going in random directions, hoping u'll get to your destination.
Say u want to go from LA to China. First off, at least u know where u want to go...alot of people don't even know that
Now, taking the "i'll get there eventually" approach is like walking in some random direction, hoping u'll get there.
U'r never gonna get there without a plane/boat of some kind. U have to realise this for starters.
Your transport is kinda like your perspective...u can mess around thinking "i'll get there eventually", but until u CHOOSE to change your current mindset, u'r just gonna end up back in LA cos u don't realise u can't get there without changing your mode of transport.
So the first reason choice matters, is because ultimately...we have to choose the right way...
and u might think "what if we never choose the right way" but u'd never stay in that mode of thought for any longer than u choose to as once u've learned what u needed to from the perspective, u'll change it

The second reason we have free choice:

it's about the experience u gain...the perspective u gain
we chose to come to this life, to this moment...RIGHT NOW, because we wanted to experience ourselves self realizing. We are a part of God that willfully cut itself off from the whole that God might know him/herself thru choice, not because we merely were all there was.
thats the thing with consciousness...there r different levels and u r aware of different things, depending on what u choose to remember.

U r God, looking back on the individual perspective called thoth87.
U r yourself AND God...a combination of individual evolution and self realization, all wrapped up in an eternal cyclic process of forgetting and remembering....
if u knew everything there was to know, how would u know u knew it, without something existing that didn't know it all???
what would be the fun in knowing u were all that existed if u had nobody to share that with? if u remained in a state of total awareness for all of eternity, what would be the point?
God is the total sum of all of us...and because time doesn't exist, we're just God remembering this moment...and the next as a point of reference.
Once u fully understand this, u start to see thru the illusion of pain n suffering, because ultimately u realize...besides your perspective........NOTHING MATTERS

so when u ask what the point is? i guess nothing besides the experience of choosing to be God again and realizing that there is only one of us, just different individual perspectives...that's all we're here for...to move into the highest idea we've ever had about who we are and want to be

Quote:
why not make the system most effiecent by simply cogging it straight, instead of putting in variables?

because variables r where the growth is...choice is where u learn the greatest lessons...without the variables, existance would have no point as consciousness could not exist

being conscious involves the ability to reason, make decisions etc.
without freewill, we would not exist
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thoth87
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:36 pm  Reply with quote

Quote:
because variables r where the growth is...choice is where u learn the greatest lessons...without the variables, existance would have no point as consciousness could not exist

being conscious involves the ability to reason, make decisions etc.
without freewill, we would not exist


And THAT is why there is no master plan. if there was, we would not be here, because there's no need for us. we help to create randomness by acting based on our own freewill. and we would not have freewill if there was some predeterimened path to follow, we'd just be here acting out whatever job we are required to do, like a cog. or a part of a machine.

and as for saying 'i'll get there eventually', if there's a master plan, I would get there eventually, as that's how the machine would be set up and programmed to do. there's no reason to give sprockets the means to grow spiritually.
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KRM
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:24 pm  Reply with quote

why can't it be both?


u'r part of a master plan that involves individual growth
why can't the individual growth add to the experience of the all?

just because the end target is inevitable, doesn't mean we don't decide when we move toward the target...that's what i'm saying
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:51 pm  Reply with quote

Well this is late, but no, I saw Cypher as weakness and evil human, not evil in any religious sense. Though he could easily be put into many, if not all, of the evil roles.

and christ! that post was huge KR! write a freakin novel why dontcha! interesting points though.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:43 pm  Reply with quote

but what kind of shit system is that KRM?
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KRM
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:44 pm  Reply with quote

nightbeest77 wrote:
Well this is late, but no, I saw Cypher as weakness and evil human, not evil in any religious sense. Though he could easily be put into many, if not all, of the evil roles.


yeah, he was pretty much all "evil" roles
i say "evil" because it doesn't actually exist, it's merely a label we've assigned to that which we decide is intrinsicaly bad. However nothing is intrinsicaly bad, only perceived to be.

so i guess he was symbolic of those that know there's more, but choose to fall into the illusion of the "real world"
and since some religion uses fear to control people instead of loving them to free them, it fits into the "knowing more, but choosing to use fear to hold an illusion" category too



And Thoth...why do u call it shit?

i find alot of the answers in this thread r based around the assumption that the answers to life's questions must be either/or
i feel that u will find alot more clarity about life and it's purpose if u look at things from a both/and perspective

like there might be one ultimate religion that will help u reach the next step in evolution

however, this doesn't mean all the rest r wrong...it all depends on what u'r trying to do with this life

they're all right, depending on your perspective and what u'r trying to do.
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thoth87
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:43 pm  Reply with quote

the system you've described (that we're all going to where we're supposed to be, but we have choices along the way) is shit because it means we really don't have freewill. regardless of how we get there, we're going to get there? but I don't WANT to go there! I'd rather go THERE! see what i'm getting at? there can be no freewill if there is absolute predestination.
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KRM
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:56 pm  Reply with quote

thoth87 wrote:
the system you've described (that we're all going to where we're supposed to be, but we have choices along the way) is shit because it means we really don't have freewill. regardless of how we get there, we're going to get there? but I don't WANT to go there! I'd rather go THERE! see what i'm getting at? there can be no freewill if there is absolute predestination.


r u even reading what i'm typing?

it's not ABSOLUTE predestination
if u don't WANT to go there, u don't have to...
u can do whatever u want...that's what i meant by "u get there only when u choose to"

so there's an ultimate plan, an ultimate destination.
but u'll only get there when u want to...so if u choose to do other things for all eternity, u'll never get there.....IF U DON'T WANT TO
but essentially, all your soul wants to be is happy and feel love, so if u get all u desire from the experience u've created for yourself...u'll be happy with that and that is pretty much the end result anyway


HOWEVER....because evolution is natural progression, u will get there anyway, because it goes one way and it's what u really want to do ANYWAY. Your soul knows what u really want...to be at one with all that is. That's why u want to be happy...and feel love...because that is a feeling associated with the oneness....
if u don't want to feel love, u've forgotten who u are...plain n simple
but if u enjoy feeling pain and suffering, u may experience that as that is your greatest joy ANYWAY...it's about PERSPECTIVE...your experience of oneness will be different to others because it's still and experience influenced by all your previous experience....but EVEN THEN u can still CHOOSE to relinquish your perspective as an individual and submit to the all, afterwhich beginning as a new perspective...

it's all about CHOICE

this is DIVINE DICHOTOMY

2 seemingly contradictory thoughts that still make sense



God's only purpose is to give us what we ask for...thru thought word and action
Our only purpose is to keep asking, we can't help BUT do this as this is the process of life

U can create consciously or unconsciously...u'll get what u ask for regardless of whether u know u'r the creator of your experience or not

Another reason it's not predestination is the fact that IT HAS ALL ALREADY HAPPENED
we r sitting at the end of time, REMEMBERING why we did things...

in RELOADED the oracle says: You didn't come here to make the choice, u came here to understand WHY U MADE IT.

it's the same with us...we're here to EXPERIENCE life
God knows herself CONCEPTUALLY...he knows she is all there is and that he is all powerful, but without another perspective, it's all just CONCEPTUAL.

so she broke off parts of the whole by way of forgetting where they came from (this is the soul part of u) that they might remember and give GOD THE EXPERIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION

there's more, but i feel u don't really care about this anyway....

sorry for the rambling heh
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thoth87
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:05 pm  Reply with quote

if I didn't care, I wouldn't be here dude. but anyways. so there is a final destination, but we don't have to get there anyway, but you will get there eventually? that's basically what you just said.

"so there's an ultimate plan, an ultimate destination.
but u'll only get there when u want to...so if u choose to do other things for all eternity, u'll never get there.....IF U DON'T WANT TO"


"HOWEVER....because evolution is natural progression, u will get there anyway, because it goes one way and it's what u really want to do ANYWAY"


and hence, I think it's a terrible system. in my eyes, there's no reason for us to have freewill if we're going to end up somewhere anyways. but don't feel too aweful bad, I used to think the same way. as me and beest's sigs used to say (until Athene got rid of sigs) "Oppinions subject to change without notice".

see, if there is no predestination, then it's all legit, us having sentience, 'cause we're just here, and will eventually become one with the universe. wait... is that your idea? this place we will arrive at? 'oneness?'
damn, you're right there, at least I think so. unless that wasn't your idea. as for the being at the end of the universe and looking back, then there's no freewill, as it's happened before. and if it happened before, when did it happen? it would have had to happen sometime, wouldn't it?
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KRM
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:45 pm  Reply with quote

haha

that's what i meant...at the end, u'r just looking back as part of the oneness from whichever perspective u choose...which is what we're doing, as God....right NOW

that is why time doesn't exist, and why we'll get the point eventually...unless we don't, which isn't bad...because as u said, we have free will to exist wherever we want, including ignorance



just because we've already made the choices...doesn't mean they appear any less real...and we can change our mind whenever we want to...it's still us doing it, but it won't change the outcome, cos it's all already happened

we are the oneness experiencing this perspective, in the eternal moment of now

it's complicated, and i don't think the human mind can fully comprehend it...i don't think we're supposed to fully get the whole process...for that would mean there would be no purpose to life itself...and without purpose, we wouldn't exist


that's just my opinion of course

and i'm sorry for assuming u didn't care, it just felt like i was repeating myself...heh
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:13 am  Reply with quote

While I disagree with the God part, mainly believing mostly like Deists, this is a very interesting point. However predestination is predestination, give it any sugar coated name you like. Thats what it is, its fate, its destiny, its predetermined, whatever you want to call it. Thats not the way any system should function when we have the choice.

Another thing, take the time and effort to type out "your" or "you". Its two more letter and makes your posts look more professional and more serious. (Just from the internet guide of proper grammer rules really, and if you bash me for bringing up a system of rules and following them i'll start posting in leet, then you'll see why not typing out two letters annoys me, since they're related. Just my personal pet peeve.)
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thoth87
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:46 am  Reply with quote

mine as well, thanks for that beest, you 1337 /-/4x0r you.

and you're right, predestination is predestination. but I can see how one can think enligthenment is predestination, although I'm fairly sure that you don't have to become enlightened if you don't want to. you can stick around for ever, as it were.
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nightbeest77
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:46 am  Reply with quote

Well a short eternity and a long instant is all that really matters, no?
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